Camera industry in the 21st-digital-century... vs smartphone market's advent

[DLD]

. I'll give you an example: a real life scene that I see every day: there is a celebrity passing by, lots of smartphones shooting, lots of small cameras and a couple of news crews with those big pmw500: the big cameras get the best spot and the smartphone people won't block the lens, but they will block all the other cameras.

You need one of those selfie sticks to raise your cam above others.

There was also an inventor/operator - I think it was for the 2014 IBC - who put together something reminding of a fishing rod. A small'ish camera was designed to be moved from the base to the tip/top of the long bending rod. Raised above people's heads, this allowed the videographer to have the high angles while shooting a club gig. He may have also hooked some very small gimbal to it as well.

And there's also a Silicon Valley startup created by some very influential people - can't recall the names at the moment - that is working on a new smartphone camera concept where half a dozen of mini cameras stitch together multiple angles with different fixed focal lengths to deliver a single image.

 

[onemanband-videomaker]

You need one of those selfie sticks to raise your cam above others.

you mean a monopod?

the fact stays with the fact that a big shoulder camera gets the shot, regardless. and that's not under interpretations: it's a fact.

then a big shoulder camera is a pleasure to use, while our little things to be held in mid air need frankenrigs that are both ridiculous and a pain to work with. And that's also a fact.

and let's be honest here: what's the purpose of ANY rig? to emulate a shoulder mount. so... what about a real shoulder camera to begin with? no? Funny things go on in our biz: people don't like the "look" of a shoulder camera, then get a compact or dslr and immediately start looking for a rig to put it on the shoulder, with the result that it becomes ugly to watch and hard to use. Lemme ask to the friends here in this forum: guys ..ever tried a shoulder camera? wanna try one? please do.... look what happens

 

[DLD]

you mean a monopod? ...

No, a selfie stick.

But, since we're talking smartphones and video and the smartphone generated video -- here's 4K Samsung Galaxy S6 --

 

[DLD]

OK, this isn't about cameras per se but ...

In the Dolby Cinema presentation of Disney's "Tomorrowland," fiber-optic-fed laser light engines, 4K resolution, HDR contrast and Atmos sound combine to create a breathtaking cinema experience. Tomorrow's theater experience can't come home soon enough.

Now to spoil the film for those who want to see it, but the reviews have it as "visually stunning" ... and one can blame Claudio Miranda for that.

The official trailer --

http://www.cnet.com/news/tomorrowla...icture-ive-seen-in-a-theater/#ftag=YHF65cbda0

 

[onemanband-videomaker]

No, a selfie stick.

But, since we're talking smartphones and video and the smartphone generated video -- here's 4K Samsung Galaxy S6 --

wow
stunning, simply put!

and with THAT you just proved me right LOL

it's either a cell phone or a big shoulder camera for access in the future of working event videographers?

one thing for sure: all the BS that we had to listen about the size of the sensor and the lens ... go straight to the recycling bin now.

 

[Curtis Mack]

As far as access is concerned - just put your small mirrorless on a rig.

 

[Gillvane]

No, a selfie stick.

But, since we're talking smartphones and video and the smartphone generated video -- here's 4K Samsung Galaxy S6 --

It's nice but almost the same price as a Panasonic G7.

 

[onemanband-videomaker]

As far as access is concerned - just put your small mirrorless on a rig.

no, rigs are for idiots who want to look "pro" and suffer like crazy holding those absurd frankestein horrendous nonsense that you never know where to put because they weight a ton and are not balanced. There are shoulder cameras, elegant, light, a pleasure to hold and a pleasure to shoot. enough is enough now with this frankenrigs nonsense.

look : it was the price to pay because we had no alternative before. I had the first GH2 and a sony ex1 at the same time. After the D90 the entire world of pro-sumer cameras crashed. Now there are "phones" shooting 4K , please take another look at the video that DLD posted. see?

it's either a shoulder mount camera or a cell phone. rigs make no sense now, not anymore.

 

[DLD]

It's nice but almost the same price as a Panasonic G7.

But if you try shouting into G7, you can be heard only as far as your voice can carry.

BTW, I posted this on another thread, the manufacturing cost of the camera inside these latest smartphones is between $17 and $20. I bet the selfie stick costs more.

no, rigs are for idiots who want to look "pro" and suffer like crazy holding those absurd frankestein horrendous nonsense that you never know where to put because they weight a ton and are not balanced. There are shoulder cameras, elegant, light, a pleasure to hold and a pleasure to shoot. enough is enough now with this frankenrigs nonsense...

Once the 4K market shakes out, you should be able to have all sort of products - from smartphones to the point&shoots to DSLR to tiny camcorder to medium/pro style, etc. The real question is the time frame it will take. The technology itself, as was just mentioned with G7, is already here. Business arrangements, however, may take a while to unwind.

 

[onemanband-videomaker]

But if you try shouting into G7, you can be heard only as far as your voice can carry.

BTW, I posted this on another thread, the manufacturing cost of the camera inside these latest smartphones is between $17 and $20. I bet the selfie stick costs more.

Once the 4K market shakes out, you should be able to have all sort of products - from smartphones to the point&shoots to DSLR to tiny camcorder to medium/pro style, etc. The real question is the time frame it will take. The technology itself, as was just mentioned with G7, is already here. Business arrangements, however, may take a while to unwind.

yes! exactly. well said.
can I go back to the year 2007? when we were all blind and missed the first sign of one of the biggest joke unveiled as such but completely missed by all of us? (the pro-sumer people).

it was the year of the canon powershot g9. That "thing" was able to shoot 15fps on a card (SD) 1024x768 or 30fps 640x480. I repeat : it was 2007, and please notice the "card" thing. The clarity was spectacular, the resolution was spectacular. By then we were all shooting 5-7K USD "things" on DV tapes via firewire , remember those? firewire , tapes, head cleanings, firewire ports burned, heads to be replaced for 500-700 bucks a pop? Forget the D90 that came out later and created the "revolution. the G9 was the first sign. and again we all completely missed it . So the so-called technology was already there in 2007? and we had to suffer for how long? 7 more years? with those absurd low quality, low resolution, low everything unbelievably expensive camcorders like the GL1, XL1, Fx1 ?
My previous post offended the frankenrigs people LOL. wake up people! it's not your fault, the entire pro-sumer segment has been taken for a ride for so long , but we are and always been SLOW to react and slow to understand.

I'll say it slowly: a cell phone shoots better (today) than the 90% of the pro-sumer frankencameras TODAY. and it's a PHONE by da way ... take a good look at the "SIZE" of the lens.

 

[DLD]

FWIW, and I didn't see this camera brought up on this site, you may want to audition the new JVC GY HM200 - a fixed lens, small sensor 4K camcorder that retails for $2,700 with a few goodies thrown in.

 

[Danielvilliers]

No, a selfie stick.

But, since we're talking smartphones and video and the smartphone generated video -- here's 4K Samsung Galaxy S6 --

My god, people on a professional video website are finding this video nice!!!!!!!!

 

[DLD]

My god, people on a professional video website are finding this video nice!!!!!!!!

A pro shooter is often paid by an amateur (or, worse, an amateur who thinks he is a pro) and, if a person writing the paycheck thinks that the above quality is good enough, then you'd have a hard time charging extra for your own "added services". And, for the bulk of these amateur customers, there's no difference between G7 and FS7 ... or, at least, not enough difference to warrant its higher fees.

PS. The audio/live performance world went through a similar technical revolution 60 years ago, when three guys with cheap guitars and a 20-watt amp made as much noise as a 15-member brass band and were far more reasonable in their negotiations to boot.

 

[Phil vG]

The camera manufacturers don't appear to concerned, otherwise why are they bothering to make new cameras. Especially something like the DVX-200?

I wonder how people would feel if they hired a Professional to shoot their wedding, or something commercial, and all the Pro showed up with is a mobile phone and a tripod. :grin:

Come to think of it, even the tripod manufactures should worry as well once a $200 Quodcopter can be satellite image stabilized and fly non-stop for 6 hours. Film on 1 phone and control on another.

 

[DLD]

The camera manufacturers don't appear to concerned, otherwise why are they bothering to make new cameras. Especially something like the DVX-200? ...

The Japanese camera manufacturers run a cartel, where each company is allotted a certain niche, which presumably plays to its strengths. This is why you see Nikon reporting a 56% operating profit margin recently. These sort of spreads are unheard of in competitive markets.

If you look at various price points, the major manufacturers are very competitive to about Sony A6000 (APS-C 24 MPX, $550 body only, $700 with the kit lens) - Samsung NX 500 (APS-C 28 MPX, 4K, $800 with the 16-50mm lens) - Panasonic G7 (MFT, 16 MPX, 4K, $800 w/ 14-42mm lens) level but then prices really take off for only marginal, and often non-existent, improvements.

The problem for these major manufacturers is that this "competitive level" keeps dropping in price, with the corresponding shrinkage in profit margins as well. Add in the fact that the low end is being eaten alive by the smartphones (~ 1.2 billion units sold in 2014 alone) and pretty soon there's going to be very little left for the meat of the market, cameras in between $1,000 and $3,000. This is why Canon and Nikon have been diversifying into security, military, automotive and medical imaging and Samsung and Sony are among the biggest players in the smartphone biz.

High end/pro shooters always paid premium for their products but the need for that is also rapidly diminishing. A $3,500 camera in the fall of 2014 is a $2,500 camera in the spring of 2015 and will be under $1,000 - once again, look at G7 - in 2017. That's great for the consumers but not too good for people who make a living from the hardware sales.

 

[onemanband-videomaker]

FWIW, and I didn't see this camera brought up on this site, you may want to audition the new JVC GY HM200 - a fixed lens, small sensor 4K camcorder that retails for $2,700 with a few goodies thrown in.

yes (again)!
I have the HM200 , it's a good camera, but needs a rig. simply put. Like all the others shares the absurd design to be held in mid-air. When I go out with the HM70 I immediately feel "liberated" . Like I said it will be either the HM70 or a cell phone). That's how I feel right now. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.
The HM70 is MORE than adequate for DVD or youtube. because in the end we have to come back to earth and consider where the "work" will be placed. So the HM70 (with a beachtek for XLR) and the HM200 as a B camera on a tripod. (or a cell phone).

P.S. : DLD where were you all this time? LOL ...I agree with pretty much everything you say!

P.P.S: about the "cartel", it's obvious, like it's obvious that we'll NEVER see a real zoom with servo from wide to tele for the GH4. guess why? in the pro-sumer video biz has always been like this: you can do up to certain "things", period, or spend 20X more to get what you really need.

here's the HM70 at work with the optional XLR work made by Satelec in Madrid (Spain) (from the Carlos Martinez Herrera Blog)




DLD... come on... look at THAT .. a shoulder camera! as it should be!

 

[Phil vG]

High end/pro shooters always paid premium for their products but the need for that is also rapidly diminishing. A $3,500 camera in the fall of 2014 is a $2,500 camera in the spring of 2015

Is it?
Which one?
Find me a store in Australia!

 

[onemanband-videomaker]

Is it?
Which one?
Find me a store in Australia!

Phil .. come on: it's obvious. we are not stupid and the video cameras are going to be compared to cell phones in terms of "pictures" (they all go on youtube for all to see). as it is today they are still in transition mode still tied up to the old marketing (poor quality prosumer camcorders at absurd prices). in a year they will level : today the JVC HM200 is a bright example, I'm sure you can get it in australia too. and that's just the beginning.

 

[Phil vG]

Phil .. come on: it's obvious. we are not stupid and the video cameras are going to be compared to cell phones in terms of "pictures" (they all go on youtube for all to see). as it is today they are still in transition mode still tied up to the old marketing (poor quality prosumer camcorders at absurd prices). in a year they will level : today the JVC HM200 is a bright example, I'm sure you can get it in australia too. and that's just the beginning.

Yes, no doubt they will be! I was just saying that our camera prices don't drop that fast in Aus. That camera started at that price and hasn't changed. It hasn't dropped $1000 in 6 months.

Look here, same websight

B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1028548-REG/panasonic_lumix_dmc_gh4_mirrorless_micro.html

Globalmediapro
http://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A2K8T1/Panasonic-AG-GH4U-Digital-Camera-with-Interface-Unit/

Or am i misinterpreting what DLD is saying with the price change?

 

[DLD]

Yes, no doubt they will be! I was just saying that our camera prices don't drop that fast in Aus. That camera started at that price and hasn't changed. It hasn't dropped $1000 in 6 months.

Look here, same websight

B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1028548-REG/panasonic_lumix_dmc_gh4_mirrorless_micro.html

Globalmediapro
http://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A2K8T1/Panasonic-AG-GH4U-Digital-Camera-with-Interface-Unit/

Or am i misinterpreting what DLD is saying with the price change?

Wasn't GH4 + YAGH going for ~ $4,000 as recently as the last fall? (wait, do I have to adjust it for Australia? .. I mean, the US fall ... September, October, etc)

P.P.S: about the "cartel", it's obvious, like it's obvious that we'll NEVER see a real zoom with servo from wide to tele for the GH4. guess why? in the pro-sumer video biz has always been like this: you can do up to certain "things", period, or spend 20X more to get what you really need...

Cartels are legal in Japan and, in the 1970's, the Japanese TV manufacturers were sued for the "product/price dumping" by the US TV manufacturers. The case lasted into the mid-1980's and was eventually won by the Japanese, who were represented in the US by Jeffrey Kessler (now working on Tom Brady's behalf in the Deflagate scandal). All the major makers of that era were accused of selling their wares for too low a price in order to drive the US manufacturers out of business. Once the verdict was rendered, the US manufacturers (Zenith, RCA, Sylvania, Quasar, Magmavox, Curtis Mathis, GE) pretty much folded.

PS. In Japan, the conglomerates control not only the manufacturing but the distribution - they're vertically integrated - and thus can control the pricing as well. They couldn't control the distribution in the US and were selling at reasonable markups from their manufacturing costs, which were then much lower than those from the US producers. Nowadays, the Japanese pretty much abandoned the low end market to the Chinese and are only fighting for the mid-to-high end against the South Koreans. Unfortunately for the pro video gear consumers, the South Koreans don't make the high end/pro video gear. That niche belongs to the Japanese and the Germans and that means both high costs and high markups.