C500: C500 Raw to prores

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Filmautre

Member
Hi guys,

So i have Paul Walkers C500 and I wanted to ask if I record 4k RAW to prores on the shogun Flame, does the cameras colour profiles and spaces effect the raw image on prores?

if so what are the best settings? I have it on Cinema profile, and canon cinema gamut, are these the best settings for the most dynamic range if it affects raw to prores or should I use BT.2020?

sorry for the newbie question but I come from GH4 and C100 so this is a learning curve for me.
 
Filmautre said:
Hi guys,

So i have Paul Walkers C500 and I wanted to ask if I record 4k RAW to prores on the shogun Flame, does the cameras colour profiles and spaces effect the raw image on prores?
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The way I understand it, and someone correcting me if I am wrong, is Canon RAW bakes in some information, so when you are using an external recorder to convert to ProRes you are basically getting 4k C-Log. I am also pretty sure you can record any "profile choices" on the internal CF cards while the 4K C-Log is being recorded by the external device. This would mean you can have a proxy set that looks pretty much so like what you wanted it to look like on set. However, I would note that I have read it's good to over expose C-Log a bit, so your proxy would be a bit overexposed and that could be an issue if you somehow had to fall back on the proxy file in an emergency situation.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness
 
Filmautre, refer to p.60 of the manual for a detailed description of your output options. Basically, the camera applies C-Log to the 3G-SDI outputs with "baked in" WB and ISO, but you do have options for monitoring LUTs and custom profiles in terms of what is recorded on your MXF proxies. It's really important that you get your WB correct and it's probably the biggest mistake you will see on C500 footage (incorrect WB settings).

If you are just using the external recorder, I would keep the camera in "CP Lock" and the "canon cinema gamut" color space. On the Odyssey, you can see that the image is recorded in C-Log and it's very easy to apply a built-in monitoring LUT.

I should also point out that the Atomos recorders can't do 2K RGB, something I mentioned on the other thread. That mode will give you the best DR out of the C500.

C-Mac, you are thinking of Sony SLOG. Never overexpose C-Log on the C500. It's absolutely the opposite. You really want to underexpose C-Log and protect your highlights since the camera has much more DR in the underexposure (7 stops vs. 5 stops). This is especially true in the 4K mode where the highlights don't have as soft a roll-off as they do in 2K RGB.
 
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Kinok said:
C-Mac, you are thinking of Sony SLOG. Never overexpose C-Log on the C500. It's absolutely the opposite. You really want to underexpose C-Log and protect your highlights since the camera has much more DR in the underexposure (7 stops vs. 5 stops). This is especially true in the 4K mode where the highlights don't have as soft a roll-off as they do in 2K RGB.
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I could be wrong, but I "really" feel like Shane Hurlbut wrote to over expose the C-Log on the 1Dc by setting your camera iso to 400 and your light meter to 320 for around 1/3 stop over exposure. I would have thought that would apply to the C500 also... The C-Log should give you enough to protect that? This will reduce noise in the blacks.

Best Regards,

Chris
 
The 1DC sensor has a different native ISO, so that may be the case. But Hurlbut is the one who recommends underexposing CLOG on the C500! He has said it many times to my recollection, including in his interview on a Canon panel a few years back.

If you overexpose in 4K mode especially, you may get harsh clipping on your blown highlights depending on how far you go with the overexposure. It's definitely not a camera that does too well on the overexposure tests, whereas in underexposure it performs amazingly well.
 
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Kinok said:
The 1DC sensor has a different native ISO, so that may be the case. But Hurlbut is the one who recommends underexposing CLOG on the C500! He has said it many times to my recollection, including in his interview on a Canon panel a few years back.

If you overexpose in 4K mode especially, you may get harsh clipping on your blown highlights depending on how far you go with the overexposure. It's definitely not a camera that does too well on the overexposure tests, whereas in underexposure it performs amazingly well.
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Canon C series to this point have not been great at highlight roll off... It's good information to know now that I have a c500. Thank you Kinok.

Best Regards,

Chris
 
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NorBro said:
Kinok, any plans for you to shoot some 2K/60P footage in the future?
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I was supposed to take the camera out this weekend for some testing, but there is a big storm that just rolled into L.A. so that has put a damper on things (especially the flash flood warning!). I'll definitely put up some C500 files for you as soon as I can get to it. Unfortunately, it's looking like next weekend at this point.
 
In the meantime, I'm not sure if you have seen the HFR footage from Magnanimous Rentals (sadly, it's only uploaded in 720p).

Here is HD 120fps recorded in DPX 10 bit 4:2:2:


Here is 4K HRAW 120fps recorded in RMF with a very shallow DOF (look for the in-focus segments!):

 
Thanks guys, I am looking at getting a used C500. I am mainly interested in the 2k 444 I wanted to go with the Atomos but as reported this does not work always a road block with this camera lol I think the 7q is the way.

I did find a shogun 1st gen for 800 uk pounds with batteries. Seemed a bargain
 
Kinok said:
In the meantime, I'm not sure if you have seen the HFR footage from Magnanimous Rentals (sadly, it's only uploaded in 720p).

Here is HD 120fps recorded in DPX 10 bit 4:2:2:


Here is 4K HRAW 120fps recorded in RMF with a very shallow DOF (look for the in-focus segments!):

Click to expand...

Thank you. I've been watching a few samples online, but want to see more!

I came across this one, which looks decent but most of it is out of focus:

NOT SAFE FOR WORK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv50fSfwKxc
 
Thanks for that link B.Berry. There is great info there and I had no idea that "85%" of Need for Speed was shot on the C500, as I haven't seen the film in years. C500 footage in the trailers is certainly recognizable and very distinctive, but I always assumed that the Alexa was the main camera. I should definitely watch that film again!

It's interesting that Hurlbut recommends shooting up at 50 IRE for faces, since he says the opposite in this interview, where he insists on retaining and protecting highlights in wide shots and backlit situations (exposure discussion starts at 6:00):


Of course, the two approaches are not mutually exclusive: you can overexpose your faces in close up while underexposing the camera for wider shots where highlight clipping is a real issue in the clouds or background for example. That is why in the third example of his blog post he actually exposed her face at 25 IRE so as to test raising the footage in post.
 
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Kinok, I watched Fathers and Daughters, two nights ago (stars or Cinemax) another Shane Hurlbut (DP) film shot on the C500, I thought some scenes were beautiful, and looked much like it could have been shot on film, these scenes always had natural, correct color temperature skin tones whatever the time of day/night. However some scenes were not so pleasing to my eye, these were leaning towards too orange / golden / skin tones, I felt so taken out of the movie when these scenes started popping up? I was liking, and then disliking the films look too much. I think the more natural and well balanced you make the skin tones for the time of day or night look, then the C500 looks great! but when you start messing with unnatural lighting ( straw, CTO, etc ) for daylight and night scenes, you have to be very careful as I learned from watching Fathers and Daughters.
 
Well, a RED Epic was supposedly used in the film as well. And one never knows what happens in post-production unless they are there in the same room.

And one film shouldn't be the be all and end all to how unnatural lighting may or may not have affected a camera's performance.
 
I think what Hurlbut was saying is the C500 sensor likes more light, and doesn't want to have too little, making it so you would have to bring it up in post. Now this does not mean don't protect your highlights, DO PROTECT YOUR HIGHLITS! always with the C500, nothing will ever look more unlike film than that blown out highlight on a C500.

Here is what Mr Hurlbut, said about what happened when he exposed Need for Speed at Canons recommendations.

What Not To Use in the Canon Cinema EOS Menus

In helping to set you up for success with this camera and getting the exposures that deliver digital film, you have to use different settings than what Canon suggests.
Canon suggests that you use the REC 709 color space out of the camera so that you can light with it. By using this, you will be underexposing your digital negative 1.5 stops on an average. In my opinion, this entire LUT was a safety net for consumers so that they would not clip everything. They would have an image that captured all of the highlights and the shadows. The unfortunate thing about using this model is that when you do bring back the image, you have severely underexposed and injected a tone of digital noise. This is what happened with Need for Speed. I exposed the camera where Canon had suggested (with the best of intentions) and underexposed the whole film. I am not a consumer. I am a Director of Photography. I had to use my friends at Cinnafilm to come in with their Dark Energy box and get rid of all the noise. Not the best situation to say the least.
 
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What I'm saying NorBro, is that in Fathers and Daughters, the extremes in scenes was too much for my eye, the night time interiors shots too orange, the bar and club scenes too orange, even the morning and bedroom scenes too orange? And once again this is looking through my eyes, you may love this look? (no one sees color the same way anyway) I think messing with color temperature and color gels has its place, but this was too extreme for my liking.
 
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I hear you...but I'm saying...what you may have not liked could have been from the RED Epic. I never saw the film and maybe you know which shots were which, but just something to consider...as well as any cc/grading that was done in post.
 
I think most of the film was shot on the C500 (all of course in 2K RGB). It has that distinctive over-saturated golden/yellow C300/C500 look with very rich colors, which is ultimately an aesthetic choice since you can easily WB that out in-camera or grade differently in post. In fact, it's relatively easy to pick out the half-dozen or so 5K Epic shots in this trailer for Fathers and Daughters (00:19, 00:57, 01:12, 01:15, 01:35, 01:58), since the rest is shot on the C500:


I imagine those were exactly the few shots or sequences you loved B.Berry, as they are all shot and graded in a very neutral way. In which case, I hear that a used Epic MX 5K is selling for only $15K these days! In my opinion, it is still the most filmic RED sensor of all time.
 
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