C500: C500 Mark II: Observations from a C300MkII point of view

[jcs]

Ha...if it doesn't matter, why bring it up? I never asked what you did. It's nice to know your name, John, but see ...you have a little problem acknowledging when you see evidence of something, you seem incapable of grasping the Logic you toss around like a fuzzball, at least when someone else is dishing it up. You've spent a LOT of time crapping on the quality of a camera you've never touched, with nothing but largely "anecdotal" evidence to back you up. If you're an engineer, tell me how often does "anecdotal" get tossed around when you're writing briefs for your patents?

I've shown you that the test you relied on for much of your argument ("the CVP test shows me what I knew all along") was fatally flawed. I've shown you that the C500II has excellent color when overexposed. I've showed you how known skin tone values respond to over exposure. But you literally are incapable of saying..."hmm...yeah..you know...that looks a lot better than what I thought. I wish it was a skin tone test, but yeah...I guess you guys were talking about stuff you understood, that I somehow missed" .

Don't worry, I don't need you to say it...so don't. I know, that in your mind it ALL started with you and what you wanted to see. But that's simply not true. Liam started the thread, and I was in it from the very beginning. We were talking about lots of issues regarding these cameras. Because no one aspect is the one that makes you buy it.

Now if I might make a respectful request: I'd really wish you'd take this fight back to the A vs B thread. This thread is about reporting data from one camera. It might be lonely over here, but I'm just fine with that.

Brought up background in the hope that pedantic talking down would cease and instead focus on discussing the evidence or providing proofs. Patents, specifically the claims, are boolean algebra (logic) which form proofs used to determine the scope of the patent. I approach these discussions as a lawyer or scientist would in getting to the truth. Those not aware of what's going on may get frustrated and start going after the speaker (ad hominem) if they aren't speaking the same scientific method + logical-proof language. I realize most people here aren't lawyers or scientists, and do my best to explain things as simply as possible, while always working with a goal to find truth. Everything that's happened in this thread I've seen before regarding insults, mockery, attempts to disqualify due to lack of perceived experience, etc. Every time the discussion revolves around the speaker, vs. focusing on the facts and evidence, that's all irrelevant and forms of ad hominem. I don't like to talk about my experience or background, however I bring it up in hopes that folks will realize I have experience in this space and will stop with ad hominem and focus on rational debate. From now on I'm just going to focus on evidence, facts, logic, and proofs, and call out ad hominem when it happens and leave it at that, since providing evidence of experience hasn't helped guide debates in the right direction.

Another reason to avoid insults / ad hominem is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect:

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.[1]

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[1]

A narcissist for example would turn this around and say- "hey that's you!". Common pattern in forum debates.

When I debated global warming, there was a similar pattern which ultimately ended on ad hominem as they had nothing rational to counter the facts and evidence (see Mann vs. Ball for courtroom evidence and proof that folks are flat out lying about what's going on (and had to pay a sizable penalty in lawyer and court fees when they lost )).

This all boils down to ego and folks wanting to be right, to win an argument, which is why there's anger, thoughts of "adversary" "fighting" etc. All you or Liam had to do if you disagreed with my declaration that the FX9 wins in IQ over the C500 II was shoot a live person and do an exposure ramp to demonstrate that the camera works differently (chart doesn't tell the whole story- cameras can do special processing on faces/skin). That's evidence, especially if one could also replicate what CVP did wrong (to help others avoid those issues). I'm guessing you and Liam aren't doing that, because even if it shows the camera in a better light, since I asked for this test, you aren't going do to anything "the adversary that your are fighting with" suggested. That's just ego, and when you guys realize that, maybe you'll have less anger about the world in general*. Sorry if I caused you any grief and good luck with your new camera.



* predictable responses are common to this kind of post

 

[cyvideo]

Points taken read learnt and understood.

Chris Young

 

[indiawilds]

Great to see another wildlife guy here. The DPAF of Canon is simply superb and helps in nailing focus in most situations. Currently trying to complete an edit of a documentary before buying the C500 II. The only benefit that the REDs have over the Canon is in resolution so that a client can crop for eg. showing a falcon and then cropping to show its talons and help create more minutes and better streamlined narrative. They also have higher frame rates but bad low light abilities. With 5.9K resolution Canon is now catching up.

Thanks for experience Barry. It's seldom that I read a post about anything on these video forums that's written by some one who is writing about their experience with anything. I just wanted to say that I bought a new C500 Mark ii because of several reasons number one being the 3 sensor readouts. That makes changing lenses not as neccesary to much for me as I shoot only wild wildlife for 30 years. I have had many cameras ( sony, red, panasonic and lately Canon C300 Mark ii's. I bought 2 C300 mark ii's and am selling one of them because after buying the new C500 MK ii Idon't need 2 C300's. The picture from the C300's is ok for what I do but the full sensor makes it easier with less lens changes for me as I use mostly prime telephotos. I also think that the C300's and the new C500 are the best wildlife cameras and or spur of the moment shooting you can buy. Of course there are some who shoot captive animals and park animals who can get by with Red cameras and maybe an arri. But in the real world of animals you don't have all day to focus and change nd filters. When I used two different Red cameras I also had to buy a C motion remote focus system ($16,000) and a $5000 monitor which had latency reading the reds output which almost made the whole setup useless. So in closing I will just say thank God for Canon. Also the color balance of the Canons is just great. Oh, and by the way. I hear a lot of groaning about how time consuming it is to process raw footage. Nonsense, again if the people complaining had some actual experience they wouldn't even bring that issue up. Just one more complaint I hear on a regular basis on these forums, C500 IQ. I can say from experience that it's just great. Anyway, thanks for the common sense and your experience putting these matters to rest.
Bill Martz

 

[Liam Hall]

What is interesting, now that Red brand cameras are actually good, no one wants them anymore. Haha!

My dealer reckons they'll sell a bucket load of Kimono cameras. I'm not so sure. I've used Reds consistently over the years since the Red One, and did think about going back fully into their ecosystem. Then sense prevailed Lol.

 

[Guest]

My dealer reckons they'll sell a bucket load of Kimono cameras. I'm not so sure. I've used Reds consistently over the years since the Red One, and did think about going back fully into their ecosystem. Then sense prevailed Lol.

Probably wise. Haha.

Fx9 and C500 look like pretty great cameras for faster paced single or two person crews. Main reason i am excited about them, is because they finally both got improved ergos, interchangeable lens mount, internal nd, workflow, and out of box aesthetic image, fast on good battery life, all in one camera. AF is just icing on the cake (but what’s cake without icing?)

 

[twickers83]

Probably wise. Haha.

Fx9 and C500 look like pretty great cameras for faster paced single or two person crews. Main reason i am excited about them, is because they finally both got improved ergos, interchangeable lens mount, internal nd, workflow, and out of box aesthetic image, fast on good battery life, all in one camera. AF is just icing on the cake (but what’s cake without icing?)

I do agree with you although, I would add that the battery life is not great when using BP series batteries. If you are coming from a C300MKII it's really shocking. It's to be expected given the extra processing power but it is worth bearing that in mind. I have been lucky to get two hours of continuous use out of a BP-A60 when shooting out in the cold. That's where the external module comes in but that adds substantial weight, which depending on what you are shooting can make it awkward. It makes it easier to balance on a shoulder rig though.

 

[Barry G]

I do agree with you although, I would add that the battery life is not great when using BP series batteries. If you are coming from a C300MKII it's really shocking. It's to be expected given the extra processing power but it is worth bearing that in mind. I have been lucky to get two hours of continuous use out of a BP-A60 when shooting out in the cold. That's where the external module comes in but that adds substantial weight, which depending on what you are shooting can make it awkward. It makes it easier to balance on a shoulder rig though.

I guess from the power side, if we look at this as a mini c700ff, it doesn’t look so bad. I’m pretty happy with the life I’m getting from the a60 battery, over two hours for me. I just wish canon would send my extension unit, so I can drop a 200wh battery on the back and stop worrying.

 

[puredrifting]

I guess from the power side, if we look at this as a mini c700ff, it doesn’t look so bad. I’m pretty happy with the life I’m getting from the a60 battery, over two hours for me. I just wish canon would send my extension unit, so I can drop a 200wh battery on the back and stop worrying.

I agree. I would run the C500 MKII from V-Mounts in most cases. For me, having the extra two XLRs would be a dream not realized since the Betacam days,
4 XLR inputs can be really handy if you shoot multiple talent interviews and all kinds of other unique situations. Of course, outboard recording by a sound mixer is best but many of us shoot things where hiring a sound mixer
just isn't going to be in the cards.

 

[Liam Hall]

Probably wise. Haha.

Fx9 and C500 look like pretty great cameras for faster paced single or two person crews. Main reason i am excited about them, is because they finally both got improved ergos, interchangeable lens mount, internal nd, workflow, and out of box aesthetic image, fast on good battery life, all in one camera. AF is just icing on the cake (but what’s cake without icing?)

Yep. I loved my FS7 and the ergonomic improvements on the FX9 are spot on. Conversely, I hated the ergonomics on the C300, but I'm getting used to the C500 mkII. Both the FX9 and C500mkII are major improvements over their predecessors, but both have glaring omissions in their specs too. No 1FPS on the C500, not FF 60fps on the FX9 for eg.

 

[Liam Hall]

I guess from the power side, if we look at this as a mini c700ff, it doesn’t look so bad. I’m pretty happy with the life I’m getting from the a60 battery, over two hours for me. I just wish canon would send my extension unit, so I can drop a 200wh battery on the back and stop worrying.

I haven't received my extension unit yet either. I only received my EVF yesterday. Could have really used it on my last shoot, but I muddled through..

One good thing in relation to power consumption is the boot-up time is super-quick on the C500. On an average day, shooting documentary, I'm only getting through three batteries so not a massive ball ache.

 

[Barry G]

I haven't received my extension unit yet either. I only received my EVF yesterday. Could have really used it on my last shoot, but I muddled through..

One good thing in relation to power consumption is the boot-up time is super-quick on the C500. On an average day, shooting documentary, I'm only getting through three batteries so not a massive ball ache.

Did you get the EVF-V70? Mine showed yesterday, but I forgot to order that $300 thingamajig to attach it to the camera, so I guess I'll be Michael Mann-ing it for another week.

I'm also curious about AC power supplies as we have a longish studio shoot this weekend. (I've never used a generic powering solution, just the earlier canon bricks). My v-lock charger has XLR out 14.4volt 10A(?) Does that sound like it would work?

Barry

 

[Liam Hall]

Did you get the EVF-V70? Mine showed yesterday, but I forgot to order that $300 thingamajig to attach it to the camera, so I guess I'll be Michael Mann-ing it for another week.

I'm also curious about AC power supplies as we have a longish studio shoot this weekend. (I've never used a generic powering solution, just the earlier canon bricks). My v-lock charger has XLR out 14.4volt 10A(?) Does that sound like it would work?

Barry

No, I only got the EVF-V50, thinking I really need the touchscreen. I'm going to review that decision in a few months.

Power: yes, that will work. It's rated 11.5V to 20.0V DC, 10 Amps.

 

[Guest]

Yep. I loved my FS7 and the ergonomic improvements on the FX9 are spot on. Conversely, I hated the ergonomics on the C300, but I'm getting used to the C500 mkII. Both the FX9 and C500mkII are major improvements over their predecessors, but both have glaring omissions in their specs too. No 1FPS on the C500, not FF 60fps on the FX9 for eg.

1fps was one of the coolest features on the original Varicams

I’ll try to find a doc that used it in a great way.

 

[Guest]

EDIT: just had to push my face in a little harder. Can now see all the corners of the frame. When on a tripod, i don’t push in as hard.

Old opinion:
The Canon V70 oled evf portholed or vignetted when i tried it. Did anyone figure out a config that works?

The Red OLED also does this, but with the Red, my eye feels annoyed a little sooner. Also, the V70 has some very useful menu and feature controls.

Arri evf2 is like looking into a movie theater.

The Red evf is nice and low profile is all. Which is a bonus, but it is also as if Red is just trying to get the evf out of the way. Haha.

New opinion:
Arri EVF2 is my favourite. The optics seem the easiest on the eyes.
Sony Venice EVF has the most black blacks of all the OLED’s, i feel. Could have been brightness settings differences.
Canon is great especially handy tools and knobs.
Red is ok. But it is also the smallest of the oled EVF’s. If you switch back and forth from evf to monitor, the smaller evf is great, and the optics are less of an issue.
On both the Canon and Red EVF’s i had to apply some pressure to see all corners of fullscreen image. The Arri and Sony didn’t require any force. For handheld, not an issue, but kind of annoying for tripod work. Imho.

 

[Barry G]

yeah it was a tough decision between this and going with a Zacuto and using the screen for menus and control...I guess when is on your shoulder you really shouldn't think that way...and between the buttons on the EVF, and the joystick on the grip, hopefully I can take control without the touch screen. ( I guess I've been doing that with the C300II for awhile now).

God is the image beautiful though. Bright, sharp, pretty. I'm not sure I'm seeing the portholing, but the image is really large. Once I get the expensive handle clamp, and can get this thing on my shoulder, I might have a different opinion.

 

[Colin Nusbaum]

Barry- does the EVF-V70 have any built-in protection from sun burn when your eye is away from it?

 

[Barry G]

Barry- does the EVF-V70 have any built-in protection from sun burn when your eye is away from it?

No, I imagine I’ll need to get a new eye cup or cover for it..

 

[Guest]

EDIT: found once i went to shoulder mount, i started applying more pressure and the Canon and Red EVF’s were absolutey corner to corner full screen goodness. I am still not sure about how i feel on the Red EVF. Will have to spend more time with it.


Old post:
When i put my eye to the Canon or Red oled evf’s, i can’t see all the corners of the frame. On the Arri EVF2, i can see the entire image. But all of them have lovely oled images. The original Arri EVF was a little too low res to pull meaningful focus with. Other people may have a different experience.


The old third party evf’s are not in the same league though. So, no way is a Cineroid retina going to feel as sharp or clean. Though, i did love the live waveforms on the ole cineroid.

Panasonic’s S1H has an EVF that rivals pro/cine video. Best mirrorless evf i’ve tried so far.

 

[Guest]

I do agree with you although, I would add that the battery life is not great when using BP series batteries. If you are coming from a C300MKII it's really shocking. It's to be expected given the extra processing power but it is worth bearing that in mind. I have been lucky to get two hours of continuous use out of a BP-A60 when shooting out in the cold. That's where the external module comes in but that adds substantial weight, which depending on what you are shooting can make it awkward. It makes it easier to balance on a shoulder rig though.

I’m used to 2hrs on a 150wh gold mount. Haha. But that is good to know. The Sony Fx9 batts look to power that hog for a while. I haven’t worked with it yet, but see the time reading in the hundreds of minutes on what is essentially a swappable internal battery. Pretty cool.

The C500ii one obvious area of regression is the onboard battery plate being so shallow. The extra power requirment you’ve mention just compounds the issue. I hated the old Red volts for the Scarlet, but had to admit, they were handy. The C500ii seems better than that, from what you are saying. So, still a plus. Thanks for that info!

 

[Liam Hall]

1fps was one of the coolest features on the original Varicams

I’ll try to find a doc that used it in a great way.

I know, I used to shoot on Varicams - much prefered the look compared to Sony at the time.