C500: C500 Mark II: Observations from a C300MkII point of view

Barry G

Well-known member
Received my camera yesterday and I'm putting it through its paces getting ready for a couple of projects. I thought I'd share my thoughts randomly as I go through features, and invite anyone with the camera to share their experiences as well.

To me, this camera is a natural upgrade from the C300II given it's price point and feature set. Many of it's best features are similar to the C200, and given the price difference, I'm not sure I'd have made the jump from that camera, so that's my perspective at this juncture.

Color/Image quality in XF-AVC -- I probably shouldn't have been surprised by this, but I was...there is very little difference in the image coming from the C300II and the C500II at base iso with all the settings matched. The c500 is perhaps a tad noisier, and 2 tads more detailed in 4k than the older camera, but the color tone reproduction is virtually identical. This probably isn't a bad thing, as it makes my C300 much more likely to stay in the mix on projects (the biggest change seems to come from the v2.0 LUTs which change how the camera reproduces deeper blues and reds). Also, the C500 image seems to vary less with the matrix presets provided (there are only three, and they have less of an effect on skin tone reproduction than the C300's matrix settings do.) I miss the Canon EOS matrix setting, as it has shown to be the most accurate and in particular affects skin tones in a way that's similar (but better) than what I'm seeing Sony doing with the FX9 and Venice.

At higher ISO's I'm still doing testing, but the C500II appears to have less color noise, and less banding artifacts all the way up to 25,600, and 6400 is looking better than it does on the C300II. I'd expected perhaps a little less noise than what I'm seeing, but it's certainly a better quality of noise, in XF-AVC at higher ISO. (see below for more about the RAW)

Autofocus - I'd watched for the past couple of years as my C200 brethren demo-ed the superior DPAF of that camera, while I struggled often to have it work in many situations on the C300II. As a one man band most of the time, it's a critical feature for me. I definitely see improvement from what I've become accustomed to. The camera hunts a lot less, and with the speed/response settings turned all the way up, produces a very seamless AF experience simply by pointing the camera. In lower light (underexposed) situations, it appears to default to a "less accuracy, less hunting" algorithm, which is...better?...hmmm. But on the face tracking, I've found that once it locks on to a face, the camera works really hard to stay with that face through changes in head position and lighting. Impressive is what I'd call that. On the other hand, it doesn't lock on to faces in the distance as well as the FX9...(although it will follow a locked on face as it travels well into the same distance). I was a bit surprised to see that "face only" tracking will in fact switch to a non-face foreground element if it's given a second or so to do so. Much more to come on this.

RAW output -- This is simply where this camera excels. The image coming out of the Raw pipeline is cleaner, more detailed, and has vastly superior color to what I'm seeing from the XF-AVC. I shot some quick stuff of my lady last night under harsh, consumer warm white LED track lights, I used the 3200 wb preset, and the XF-AVC was what you'd expect --Color was a little dirty and "OK" but it was definitely messy. The Raw on the other hand, even before I touched it, had a much more normal looking palette of colors, and seemed to be distinguishing between the various colors in the scene in ways I wouldn't have expected, given the lighting. The bad news is I know I'm going to want to shoot everything in RAW, and that's going to get expensive. Luckily the CRL workflow in FCPX seems quite simple and there's very little penalty other than render time.

Thats it for today. Very curious as to what other users are seeing.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Barry G, good casual observations. Good to hear about the DPAF in the wild with a real camera. From the tests I've seen that CVP shot, the FX-9 AF seems a bit better but both the C500 MKII and the FX-9 seem to have overall excellent AF.
Just like I do now with the C200, I would shoot RAW whenever you can, it's superior to XF-AVC and easy to work with in FCP X. We shoot a few projects in XF-AVC or externally with Prores but are slowly turning at least some of our clients to shooting
RAW, especially for green screen where it really performs exceptionally for pulling ultra smooth, clean keys.

Good luck with your new camera, hope it makes you $$$
 
Last edited:
That you for the update Barry!

I've been worried about the XF-AVC in the C500 II based on some early tests. I feared it would be the same situation as my C200. With my C200, there is a massive quality difference between the raw recording and the MP4 420 recording. It's so extreme that I basically never shoot anything in Mp4 420 on the C200. I ended up just forking over the cash for a bunch of CFast cards because I couldn't in my right mind ever shoot with that 420 setting. I only shoot raw and if it's a client that doesn't want raw, I then transcode to ProRes 422 HQ and edit with that. It's worked fine, but transcoding days of footage can really suck. On the C500 II, If the raw recording is light years beyond the XF-AVC, I'd probably want to only record raw on that camera, too. And 6K raw is even more data, much longer transcoding times, and Cfexpress is new and very expensive. Maybe it's just me, but outside commercial clients that are shooting high end 30 second spots, I'm not so sure today's clients are going to want to be handed 6TB of 6k raw files. Transcoding will certainly become a part of the C500 II post process for many.

I do wish the C500 II could shoot a scaled 10 bit 4k raw image. Anything to help save some space while maintaining the high quality of the raw file. One user here suggested an interesting hack that might work, but hasn't been verified yet. He wondered if in S&Q mode (where the raw is 10-bit 2Gbps @ 60p), you get the same increased compression ratio when you set the camera to 24fps or 25fps. Might be worth checking out. Might be a way to hack the camera into shooting 10bit raw instead of 12 bit. Just an idea.
 
Color/Image quality in XF-AVC -- I probably shouldn't have been surprised by this, but I was...there is very little difference in the image coming from the C300II and the C500II at base iso with all the settings matched.

Interesting. I just placed a rental order for the C500MKII to shoot along side a C300MKII next week, so I guess in a way this is a good thing for this situation. When you were doing this comparison were you shooting the C500MKII in XF-AVC at 810 Mbps or 410 Mbps? (C300MKII shoots only at 410 Mbps I believe) At almost twice the data rate of 810 Mbps I would expect to see more improvement in quality of the image.....I'll admit that I was hoping it would be pretty close to the C200 when shooting RAW.

Once I get my rental this weekend and get to use it on an actual shoot next week I'll share my findings on this thread as well. Thanks for starting it.
 
Well if the XF-AVC looks pretty much the same as the C300 Mark II, and XF-AVC is what probably 90% of my clients would want anyway, it gives me even less reason to upgrade.
 
Where are you located Barry? If in NYC would you be into doing a comparison between this, RED and Arri?
 
If the colors of the C500 II actually match the C300 II, I am going to be very happy. It means I will be much less inclined to buy a second C500 II after the first one arrives. Almost everything I do requires at least two cameras and I was just planning on using my current C300 MKII's for interviews and events while relegating the C500 II to the footage that matters. I don't have a single client that would ever want want RAW for a full day of interviews. In fact, most of them will probably still be happy that I can supply them with 50 Mbps. But none of my clients want to deal with mismatched color.

I am intrigued by your comment about violet and blue and the v2.0 Luts. The Canon C300 II always liked to push blue to violet so I am wondering if this is a new color science in the C500 II or actually a result of a new LUT that fixes the inherent red/blue mistakes on the C300 II.
 
This is great feedback! I'm also looking to pull the trigger on a C500 in the coming months.

Curious if anyone has played much with the internal stabilization? It's been mentioned a few times on some YouTube videos, and from people who have actually used it (vs. people who are merely speculating) it seems to be pretty useful. I'd be curious to know what's possible with an IS lens + internal stabilization + gimbal, to what extent Z axis movement can be minimized.
 
This is great feedback! I'm also looking to pull the trigger on a C500 in the coming months.

Curious if anyone has played much with the internal stabilization? It's been mentioned a few times on some YouTube videos, and from people who have actually used it (vs. people who are merely speculating) it seems to be pretty useful. I'd be curious to know what's possible with an IS lens + internal stabilization + gimbal, to what extent Z axis movement can be minimized.

I’ve given it a go and I think where it works well is in “static” handheld situations.. DSLR style/cradled shots where you want that type of control without the jitters it usually induces... I think it’s not particularly helpful in walking/kinetic shots..it does smooth things a little, but not enough to replace other tools in that situation. Frankly, I’m happy it can smooth out my 56 year old handheld work as well as it does. Waiting on my shoulder rig, and will try to test it out in that modality. Btw.. the crop is minimal, and it doesn’t seem to have a significant effect on detail.
 
If the colors of the C500 II actually match the C300 II, I am going to be very happy. It means I will be much less inclined to buy a second C500 II after the first one arrives. Almost everything I do requires at least two cameras and I was just planning on using my current C300 MKII's for interviews and events while relegating the C500 II to the footage that matters. I don't have a single client that would ever want want RAW for a full day of interviews. In fact, most of them will probably still be happy that I can supply them with 50 Mbps. But none of my clients want to deal with mismatched color.


I am intrigued by your comment about violet and blue and the v2.0 Luts. The Canon C300 II always liked to push blue to violet so I am wondering if this is a new color science in the C500 II or actually a result of a new LUT that fixes the inherent red/blue mistakes on the C300 II.

The new LUT darkens and increases saturation in the blue-red range. (At least in the chart colors I’m looking at) It doesn’t seem to be messing with the hues at all. In the past, purple skies have seemed LUT related to me, with some of canons LUT introducing more red than others. I read some canon documentation that indicated they had worked on the “blue LED” issue.. don’t know how successful it was.
 
Well if the XF-AVC looks pretty much the same as the C300 Mark II, and XF-AVC is what probably 90% of my clients would want anyway, it gives me even less reason to upgrade.

I’m not sure I’d read too much into my comment. Specifically I was talking about base iso, and while the is some difference, it isn’t significant there. I think the higher ISO’s will end up seeing more differentiation. (I shot iso comparisons today but probably won’t look at for a few days. ) That said, I don’t see anyone needing this camera because it does 4K xf-avc. The 6k internal raw is its defining feature.
 
Interesting. I just placed a rental order for the C500MKII to shoot along side a C300MKII next week, so I guess in a way this is a good thing for this situation. When you were doing this comparison were you shooting the C500MKII in XF-AVC at 810 Mbps or 410 Mbps? (C300MKII shoots only at 410 Mbps I believe) At almost twice the data rate of 810 Mbps I would expect to see more improvement in quality of the image.....I'll admit that I was hoping it would be pretty close to the C200 when shooting RAW.

Once I get my rental this weekend and get to use it on an actual shoot next week I'll share my findings on this thread as well. Thanks for starting it.

The 810 MB’s is 50/60p. 24/30p is 410.
 
One gripe I have, (unless I'm doing something wrong) no 1FPS. I'm sure the preproduction model I had could do 1FPS but my shiny new MKII can only go down to 12FPS.
 
The 810 MB’s is 50/60p. 24/30p is 410. It’s the same codec as the c300ii.

Ah, ok that explains it then. Thanks for clarifying.

That said, I don’t see anyone needing this camera because it does 4K xf-avc
This would actually be 95% of the reason why I would buy one, to get away from the defining feature of the C200 - 4K internal raw recording to instead have a high quality, edit friendly and smaller sized file to hand off to the 90% of my clients that don't need/want raw.
 
If ARRI can make ProRes look pretty much the same as ARRIRAW in terms of color, Canon should be able to make XF-AVC match CRL in terms of color.

Canon's digital IS: from EOS R experience, it's useful for static handheld, as well as standing pan/tilt, including fast motion. Walking, running still needs a gimbal etc.
 
.... This would actually be 95% of the reason why I would buy one, to get away from the defining feature of the C200 - 4K internal raw recording to instead have a high quality, edit friendly and smaller sized file to hand off to the 90% of my clients that don't need/want raw.

You might have to wait for C400 (or C300 MKIII, or whatever it might be called)

Or FX-6, if you're not hundred percent brand loyal.
 
This would actually be 95% of the reason why I would buy one, to get away from the defining feature of the C200 - 4K internal raw recording to instead have a high quality, edit friendly and smaller sized file to hand off to the 90% of my clients that don't need/want raw.

I think I wasn't clear enough. I meant for someone upgrading from a C300 II, not the C200. That said, I've been putting XF-AVC through its paces in terms of ISO (with both cameras) and also under some challenging lighting. I've looked at the C500 shots, and they look really good to me. When I get time to process the C300 clips I'll post both. I think as the ISO rises, the C500 looks better and better.
 
I really dislike (and that's putting it nicely) Canon for crippling every camera model to protect the other ones.
C200 4K60p - lite RAW - but no XF-AVC 10bit
C300II XF-AVC 10bit but no 4K60p
C500II XF-AVC 10bit, lite RAW, FF and 4K60p - but almost 16k

That made the FS7 4K60p XAVC 10bit probably so successful over many years and will now bring success to the FX9.
 
I really dislike (and that's putting it nicely) Canon for crippling every camera model to protect the other ones.
C200 4K60p - lite RAW - but no XF-AVC 10bit
C300II XF-AVC 10bit but no 4K60p
C500II XF-AVC 10bit, lite RAW, FF and 4K60p - but almost 16k

That made the FS7 4K60p XAVC 10bit probably so successful over many years and will now bring success to the FX9.

Yeah... Sony would never stoop to such a thing. Fx9 has all the Venice features for 1/4 the price. That 6k sensor is like so 6k, can’t wait to shoot some 6k with it. :). Not sure how this relates at all to this thread, but the more the merrier!
 
One gripe I have, (unless I'm doing something wrong) no 1FPS. I'm sure the preproduction model I had could do 1FPS but my shiny new MKII can only go down to 12FPS.

According to the manual, S&F minimum capture rate is 12 in 24p. 15 in 30p. I swear I saw a video with a pre-production camera where the vloggist opened the menu and it went to 2fps. Not a big one for me, but an odd omission considering this feature has been consistent in the C-EOS line from the start.
 
Back
Top