C500: C500 and The Atomos Shogun

Kinok said:
But as for "full functionality," I have to disagree
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I said it is cheaper to get full functionality with the Inferno.

To get the full functionality of the Inferno costs $2000 - out of the box.

To get the full functionality of the O7q+ costs $2800.

What's to disagree with there? I know the O7q+ is the better product, I even said that, but you're mincing my words!
 
C-Mac said:
The thing I need most is ProRes 4k not super interested in RAW out of the C500 at this point. I would love to get Slow Motion in 2k or 1080... will the Shogun Inferno do that as of shipping? I am tired of all their asterisks. I do love their false colors and menu navigation is simple and quick.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness

www.pulsecinema.com
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Atomos themselves have said the Inferno will do 4K ProRes up to 30p from launch, and that 4K DCI (RAW) will be added in a firmware update. They've certainly changed their firmware release schedule though (several things originally announced will now not be available until later firmware updates) so I'd take anything with a grain of salt until the product is in the wild and things can be confirmed.
 
deltoidjohn said:
I said it is cheaper to get full functionality with the Inferno.

To get the full functionality of the Inferno costs $2000 - out of the box.

To get the full functionality of the O7q+ costs $2800.

What's to disagree with there? I know the O7q+ is the better product, I even said that, but you're mincing my words!
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I already acknowledged what you said: 4K ProRes will be much cheaper on the Atomos than on the Odyssey. The rest was I think simply a misunderstanding on my part: you were referring to the "full functionality" of the Shogun Inferno and not the C500. In that case, I would agree. The Inferno does not require an extra fee to unlock its measly offerings for the C500.

And, btw, Atomos is promising RAW recording in CDNG and not Canon's native Cinema RAW (RMF) as on the Odyssey. Who knows how that will work . . .
 
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Of Rushing Nowhere is a lovely film that I've watched many times before, but the grade is very punchy indeed. I guess you might call that the classic "Canon look," for good or bad.

An alternative look or grade is the one that Musicbed videos had back when they were all shot on the C500:


The only thing I don't like about the Musicbed C500 videos is the addition of grain in post-production:


The C500 has a very filmic noise structure that appears as "grain." You don't need to add anything like artificial "film grain" in post.
 
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Kinok said:
He said a few times that the C500 was "too sharp" or "video looking" in 4K mode for the purposes of the aesthetic look in Fathers and Daughters. This was also after he shot Need for Speed on the C500 in 4K (and mastered in 2K):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5febma4_OE

Here is an interview where Hurlbut and a few other C500 shooters discuss the more pleasing highlight roll-off in 2K RGB mode. It's also a great primer on exposing for the C500 ("protect highlights as the camera has 7 stops of DR in the underexposure"):

https://vimeo.com/111900328

The 2K RGB mode will indeed give you slightly more DR than the advertised 12 stops in 4K mode. Color depth, color separation, and richness are also added benefits to the RGB mode, not to mention the lack of aliasing/moiré:


Honestly, the camera looks great in all modes, even with the internal 1080P MXF files:


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Thank you... good information! I appreciate it!
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I really liked this short film shot on the Canon C500, "Club Policy." I think it looks great too.

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I like this better than the Band Pro film. Looks more filmic to me.... The camera really is excellent! I have been using the 1Dc & C100 for
quite some time and the recent price drops on the C500 make it a great stop gap for my company for a year or two to see where the market goes...

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness

www.pulsecinema.com
 
Kinok said:
I already acknowledged what you said: 4K ProRes will be much cheaper on the Atomos than on the Odyssey. The rest was I think simply a misunderstanding on my part: you were referring to the "full functionality" of the Shogun Inferno and not the C500. In that case, I would agree. The Inferno does not require an extra fee to unlock its measly offerings for the C500.

And, btw, Atomos is promising RAW recording in CDNG and not Canon's native Cinema RAW (RMF) as on the Odyssey. Who knows how that will work . . .
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I like the feature set of the 7Q+ it offers a lot more when paired with the C500 than the Inferno. It does come with a price.

I rarely shoot slow motion, but have client's ask for it... 4k to ProRes is the single most important record feature to me, that is
what my clients are going to be most interested in. $800 is not a huge deal, but I find the usage of the menus and false colors on
the Atomos units to be ridiculously simple. That is a big part of the equation for me. If 7Q+ was equal price or had the same
false colors and simple menu system the decision would be easier. I feel like I can always rent the 7Q+ as needed. I am really on the fence.

I would hope Atomos would add features, but I would not bank on it and just look at it as a bonus when if and when it comes.

I appreciate this discussion and the information it is imparting.

Best Regards,

Chris
 
C-Mac, the Atomos may very well meet your needs, but remember it is not always great to be an early adopter. If you can wait a few weeks for reviews and the first round of firmware fixes/additions, you might avoid a lot of headaches.

If you just want 4K ProRes at 30p/24p, you might also want to check out the Shogun Flame which is a few hundred dollars cheaper and already well and truly field tested.
 
deltoidjohn said:
C-Mac, the Atomos may very well meet your needs, but remember it is not always great to be an early adopter. If you can wait a few weeks for reviews and the first round of firmware fixes/additions, you might avoid a lot of headaches.

If you just want 4K ProRes at 30p/24p, you might also want to check out the Shogun Flame which is a few hundred dollars cheaper and already well and truly field tested.
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I agree, but will likely hold off a little... the one thing about the inferno is it will likely be better than the flame moving forward with other cameras and that is likely worth the money. They needed the additional processing speed for certain things. I'll likely pull the trigger when the next client asks for 4k 2 camera.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness
www.pulsecinema.com
 
Anyone know if the Shogun's RAW-ProRes 4K is DCI or UHD? It's not clearly stated on Atomos email info from the lease and on line they have so many asterisks it's silly. I have asked this question on their FB page.

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness

www.pulsecinema.com
 
C-Mac said:
I find the usage of the menus and false colors on
the Atomos units to be ridiculously simple. That is a big part of the equation for me. If 7Q+ was equal price or had the same
false colors and simple menu system the decision would be easier.
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Chris, have you tried the False Colors and the menus on the Odyssey7Q+? There is a virtual button on the Lower Toolbar of the Odyssey that says FALSE. Tap it and the False Colors function is activated/deactivated. Just one tap and you don't have to go through any manu to find it. Want to adjust the False Colors? Instead of a tap, hold your finger on the FALSE button and after a few seconds a control panel appears that allows you to specifically program the colors of the False Color tool. And so you never forget, whenever you activate the False Color tool there is a legend at the bottom of the screen graphically indicating exactly what the False Color readout is set to.

Convergent Design prides itself on the functionality of our monitoring tools. They do a lot more than similar tools on competitor's products. We designed them to function the way a DP really needs to use them on set. The menus may have more complications, but that's because you can choose to go deeper into them and adjust them to your liking. For the most part each tool is only a single tap away.

Also note that our tools work in every mode and will also interact with one another as much as is logical or technically possible. So we allow the user to combine Focus Assist and Pixel Zoom, or Anamorphic Desqueeze and False Color, etc. Others have limitations on combining certain functions in ways that are not indicated on any spec sheet.

Here's our webpage illustrating the functionality of the Odyssey7Q+ Monitoring Tools. There's actually even more not shown here -- I guess it's time for me to shoot some more videos.
https://www.convergent-design.com/image-tools
 
Mitch Gross said:
Chris, have you tried the False Colors and the menus on the Odyssey7Q+? There is a virtual button on the Lower Toolbar of the Odyssey that says FALSE. Tap it and the False Colors function is activated/deactivated. Just one tap and you don't have to go through any manu to find it. Want to adjust the False Colors? Instead of a tap, hold your finger on the FALSE button and after a few seconds a control panel appears that allows you to specifically program the colors of the False Color tool. And so you never forget, whenever you activate the False Color tool there is a legend at the bottom of the screen graphically indicating exactly what the False Color readout is set to.

Convergent Design prides itself on the functionality of our monitoring tools. They do a lot more than similar tools on competitor's products. We designed them to function the way a DP really needs to use them on set. The menus may have more complications, but that's because you can choose to go deeper into them and adjust them to your liking. For the most part each tool is only a single tap away.

Also note that our tools work in every mode and will also interact with one another as much as is logical or technically possible. So we allow the user to combine Focus Assist and Pixel Zoom, or Anamorphic Desqueeze and False Color, etc. Others have limitations on combining certain functions in ways that are not indicated on any spec sheet.

Here's our webpage illustrating the functionality of the Odyssey7Q+ Monitoring Tools. There's actually even more not shown here -- I guess it's time for me to shoot some more videos.
https://www.convergent-design.com/image-tools
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Thank you Mitch. I like how you can change the false colors. I do have a friend that has the unit, he loves it and uses it with his C300 MK II. The thing I need most is the RAW to ProRes... other things are icing, but not likely to be use much... making it harder to spend the additional money... I may do it... maybe you guys will discount the RAW upgrade for the holidays, LOL.

Best Regards,

Chris

www.pulsecinema.com
 
Kinok said:
The current IMAX feature A Beautiful Planet was shot entirely on the C500 (and a 1DC for time-lapse sequences):


Here is the American Cinematographer article on the film, with images of the large C500 rig for space and an explanation of why they chose to go with the C500 4K over other cinema cameras:

http://www.theasc.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/AC-A-Beautiful-Planet.pdf
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Yeah, this is a great share and reminder of the quality of these tools.

I love my 1Dc and have been using it for a couple years. I just shot a TV commercial with the 1Dc and thought it looked great. Needed a slow motion shot that we shot with the FS7 and was disappointed in the Sony look, which is part of the reason I just picked up a C500 EF and am looking to pairing it with my 1Dc or vise versa.

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness

www.pulsecinema.com
 
With all the money you already have invested in the Canon cameras ( C500 EF and 1DC ) why would you take the lesser 4k recording option? I'm sure you have nice glass for the canons and spent the extra for that. If you buy a used Odyssey Q7+, I just bought one for $1600 with two 256 cards, I could have bought another unit for $1500 used with the two cards here in LA, but the $1600 one was newer, then buy the RAW option when you need it, Convergent had a sale over the summer for $595 that may come back for the coming holidays? then you would be in the $2200 range and have the best 4K option for the C500, I'm glad I went with the Odyssey :)
 
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B.Berry said:
With all the money you already have invested in the Canon cameras ( C500 EF and 1DC ) why would you take the lesser 4k recording option? I'm sure you have nice glass for the canons and spent the extra for that. If you buy a used Odyssey Q7+, I just bought one for $1600 with two 256 cards, I could have bought another unit for $1500 used with the two cards here in LA, but the $1600 one was new! then buy the RAW option when you need it, Convergent had a sale over the summer for $595 that may come back for the coming holidays? then you would be in the $2200 range and have the best 4K option for the C500, I'm glad I went with the Odyssey :)
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Not saying I am not going to do it, but I don't see my client's asking for RAW. ProRes 4k will be 99% of what I will use... the other usage will be the 2k slow motion that comes with the base 7Q+. I do have a friend with the 7Q+ and I can always rent that... So to jump off I have to spend the extra money just to do what I need... I'm also still trying to get the answer if the Inferno is doing ProRes UHD or DCI that is not 100% clear... It does not sound like the 7Q+ does RAW to ProRes 4k DCI. It's likely the Inferno does not either, but if it did that would be important to me.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness
www.pulsecinema.com
 
C-Mac said:
It does not sound like the 7Q+ does RAW to ProRes 4k DCI.
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Yes it does.

DCI 4K RAW to DCI 4K ProRes up to 30p
QHD RAW to UHD ProRes up to 30p

Plus in RAW it records DCI 4K up to 60p and QHD up to 60p and DCI 4K hRAW up to 120p.

QHD is Canon's term for UHD.
 
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