C500: C500 120 FPS workflow?

fab410 said:
I have found that I would much rather shoot 12 bit than RAW. For me the having the additional color depth is much more important than the pixels. The extra color depth just looks so good and grades beautifully, once you work with it you never want to go back. Bottom line is if the Odyssey 7Q could record 120fps to a compressed codec and offered ProRes444 12bit I would be a happy guy. I also agree DNxHD is a must my main clients use Avid too. I just recently upgraded my C500's firmware and downloaded the new LUT's Canon has available on their website and was really impressed with the look of the image in Resolve after applying the LUTs.
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We are actively working on a compressed 12-bit 4:4:4 solution and hope to make it available soon.

We are also actively looking to convert 120p RAW to video and record it in a compressed form, both for the C500 as well as the FS7/FS700.

And we are committed to offering a DNx solution as well.


Our engineers are working tirelessly and we just hired several more. The Odyssey7Q enjoyed six firmware updates in 2014 and we expect to have a similar number in 2015 as we continue to introduce new features and improve others.
 
fab410 said:
Yes you are correct the 7Q does do 12bit DPX. In our workflow though we pretty much always take it to 444 before doing anything with it so if the recorder did that for us it would be helpful. Also, as far as SSD's and roll time 444 would be more workable in the field.

You are also correct Canon Raw is 10 not 12bit. Strange but true.
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We are working on the compressed 444.

As for RAW being 10-bit but video being 12-bit, please do not confuse LOG and LINEAR numerical data encoding. If fact these two are roughly equal.
 
Mitch Gross said:
We are actively working on a compressed 12-bit 4:4:4 solution and hope to make it available soon.

We are also actively looking to convert 120p RAW to video and record it in a compressed form, both for the C500 as well as the FS7/FS700.

And we are committed to offering a DNx solution as well.


Our engineers are working tirelessly and we just hired several more. The Odyssey7Q enjoyed six firmware updates in 2014 and we expect to have a similar number in 2015 as we continue to introduce new features and improve others.
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Thanks for chiming in, Mitch. I appreciate the work your team has done, and the 4k Prores update has given me a new camera again. The Odyssey 7Q has insured my C500 will have a long life ahead of it. The recorded images it gives me are too notch, and I'm looking forward to more features in the future!
 
Mitch Gross said:
Please note that with the latest firmware we did introduce both 4K ProRes to 30p as well as UHD ProRes to 30p for the C500. Set your camera to true 4K (4096x2160) instead of QHD (3840x2160) and the Odyssey7Q should auto-detect the signal. Occasionally it misses the flag noting the difference when switching between the formats. If this happens, unplug one of the SDI feeds and then re-insert it to re-boot the signal detection subroutine.
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Ah, good to know! I've been traveling internationally on a show over the last few months, and haven't had a chance to put the new firmware through its paces. Thanks for the tip!
 
Mitch Gross said:
We are working on the compressed 444.
PHP:

As for RAW being 10-bit but video being 12-bit, please do not confuse LOG and LINEAR numerical data encoding. If fact these two are roughly equal.
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Would you please elaborate on the 10bit raw equaling 12bit video? Interesting. It just looks strange the canera's raw format is restricted to 10 bit while the video compressed one is 12bit. Never seen it in another camera before. Not even sure if it's possible as the 12bit 4:4:4 version is derived from the camera's raw signal, which in this case is 10bit shades of colour/luma, it doesn't look possible unless the 12bit 444 is derived for a raw-er version than the Canon 10bit recordable raw, which would mean the raw signal is compressed.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Would you please elaborate on the 10bit raw equaling 12bit video? Interesting. It just looks strange the canera's raw format is restricted to 10 bit while the video compressed one is 12bit. Never seen it in another camera before. Not even sure if it's possible as the 12bit 4:4:4 version is derived from the camera's raw signal, which in this case is 10bit shades of colour/luma, it doesn't look possible unless the 12bit 444 is derived for a raw-er version than the Canon 10bit recordable raw, which would mean the raw signal is compressed.
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This is from Canon's C500 white paper:

"Management of C500 Output Data Rate – Logarithmic Encoding Considerations of RAW data rate outputs from the EOS C500 differ from that of most other single sensor cameras – and they are two-fold:

1. In close consultation with no less than five separate digital recording manufacturers we established a consensus on a maximum camera data rate output that could be managed by each (even though each had different recording strategies)

2. Very important – Canon specifically wanted to use the SMPTE ST 425-1:2011 serial 3G SDI interface as the transport mechanism for our RAW data – in order to facilitate:
• A standardized (and universal) serial digital delivery to each of the disparate recorders
• Passage of the camera output RAW data into broadcast 4K/2K/HD infrastructures that utilize standardized 3G SDI system elements (camera CCUs, routers, encoders etc)

Accordingly, the RAW data rate output is constrained to less than 3Gbps for both 4K and 2K having frame rates up to 30P – so only one 3G SDI interface would be required.

This data rate was achieved without resorting to compression by constraining the camera output to a bit depth of 10-bit for the 4K RAW and to 12-bit for the 2K RAW – as outlined in the following:

Canon 4K: 4444 Bayer RAW Data rate @ 30 fps
2048 x 1080 x 4 x 10 x 30 = 2,654,208,000 bits/ second

Canon 2K: RGB 4:4:4@12 -bit Data Rate at 30 fps
2048 x 1080 x 3 x 12 x 30 = 2,388,787,200 bits / second

Both of these data streams fit comfortably within the 3G SDI interface standard. For higher frame rates – up to 60P – the elevated data rates (still less than 6 Gbps) will require two 3G SDI interfaces.

To meet those two bit-depth constraints without compromising restoration of the higher bit-depth of the image sensor output in postproduction resort was made to an alternative bit rate reduction strategy – namely, logarithmic encoding of the image sensor linear representation (according to the mathematically prescribed Canon Log). Specifically, the high bit depth of the image sensor digital outputs are logarithmically transformed to a 10-bit depth for the 4K mode, and to a 12-bit (with 10-bit as a selectable option) for the 2K mode. This is a completely reversible process. While Canon does not disclose the bit depth of our A/D converter – we do affirm that the linearization process (de-Canon Log) can reproduce the linear representation at 12-bit, 14-bit, or 16-bit (DPX or Open EXR)."

source: http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/White_Paper_originatinghighqualityc500.pdf
 
As noted above, Canon uses a curve on the RAW file to effectively get more usable bits out of their 4K 10-bit structure. Without breaking NDA I can state that it is a very effective system upon de-Logging, and the result is a very addressable and adjustable image. It is also far more efficient in the handling of the data than the concept of a linear "just give them whatever comes off the sensor" system. In reality no manufacturer really does that, but Canon treats its RAW quite differently than other manufacturers do.

The only definition of RAW is really "not de-Bayered." You may think it means other things, but in reality no manufacturer doesn't touch the signal in some way.
 
I'm happy to hear from Mitch that C-D is still on the development program for the O7Q in combination with the C 500. While it was a bit frustrating early on waiting for some of the firmware updates for the O7Q and the capabilities they bring, its good to know that there is still more in the works. I think the C500 in tandem with the O7Q has a lot of life in front of it and am pleased to know that development of O7Q capabilities continues.
 
Mitch Gross said:
We are working on the compressed 444.

As for RAW being 10-bit but video being 12-bit, please do not confuse LOG and LINEAR numerical data encoding. If fact these two are roughly equal.
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Just wanted to bump this thread to see if theres any news on 4444 ProRes for c500. Starting a new show in a couple of weeks, and would be OK to shoot 10bit proreshq, and sometimes 12bit dpx, but workflow would be much smoother with 4444 prores native in the q7+
 
I recently purchased the C500 and am looking to pair it with the Odyssey. Have we given up hope for 120fps ProRes files?
Also, when shooting 120fps in half raw and taking the file through Canon's raw development program, what is the image size of the output files? Is it 4096x2160? Is there any caveats to working with the half raw image size other than file size and processing time?
Please note I called Canon Tech several times about this but they weren't sure and needed to test. I receive my camera next week. Can't wait. Thanks in advance for any knowledge shared. I purchased from Mitch's old stomping grounds, AbelCine. They have 1 left. Ask for Victor in the New York office. He's excellent.
 
We introduced Apple ProRes 4444XQ & 4444 12-bit recording in 2K & HD more than a year ago. Don't hold your breath for 4K half RAW 120p conversion to Apple ProRes. The math used by Canon is complex to say the least, which is a large part of the reason only the Canon software supports half RAW files.

Yes, output resolution of the files is 4096x2160.
 
Thanks Mitch. One more question: is CD supporting prores to 60p out of the C500 now? I thought it was only up to 30p, but wasn't keeping up to date with all firmware upgrades.

Greatly appreciate all your input on here. Your a valuable resource of info and CD is lucky to have you. I also found cowpunk52's explanation here too, he states, "The C500 does not record alternating scanlines during half raw, but instead completely skips half the vertical pixel lines for a 4096x1080 raw progressive signal that is later interpolated to 4096x2160. There is also a function of half-raw that allows it to record the middle 1080 vertical pixel lines for a very wide 4096x1080 aspect ratio with no line skipping."
 
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4K60p in RAW, 4K30p in Apple ProRes.

Please send me a PM letting me know who you spoke with. I'd like to make sure our staff has the correct information.
 
Does the Canon c500 able to output 10bit over HDMI at all? or external recording is stick to sdi only?
 
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