C500: C500 120 FPS workflow?

T

tjphoto

Member
Hello all,

I have been trying to figure out the work flow to shoot 120 frames per second with the C 500 . I know you have to have a recorder like the Odyssey Q7 with two SSDs . Then, you have to have some type of software that can combine them into one?
Could someone who has done this please explain how much of a hassle this is.
Thanks,
Tim
www.tjphoto.net
 
Hey Tim,

It is not a quick process I will say that much. Because the Odyssey 7Q only supports 120fps when you shoot 4K Half Raw you have to record using two SSD's Raided in the 7Q and you will also need to purchase or rent the Canon Raw upgrade for the recorder.

Here is the procedure I use.

1. Record as described above

2. Download the two SSD's to one folder on your computer, one SSD will have even numbered files and the other will have odd numbered files.

3. You then must merge the two files using a program called CD Clip Merger provided by Convergent Design

4. Once the files are merged you need to debayer the footage using a program called Cinema Raw Development provided by Canon. Within this program I transcode to either a DPX sequence or ProRes444.

5. Last but not least I grade using Davinci Resolve and delivery in a whichever codec my client requires.

It is a workflow not for the faint of the heart! The files are huge (25 mins per TB) and it takes a while to do. I have been waiting from the days of the Gemini 444 to be able to shoot HD 120fps compressed to avoid that workflow. I would probably shoot 120fps every shoot if it was available. As it stands now I only shoot 120fps sparingly it is too cumbersome for most projects.

I am afraid I will most likely own a different camera before CD fully supports the C500 with the 7Q.

I hope this helps.
 
Fab140 hits the nail on the head, but I will say that it's a relatively quick and simple process up until you need to develop the raw files. And at that point, how long it takes largely depends on your computing system. However, 120fps direct to compressed codec would be far more convenient to use.
 
Brian,


You've had the C500 for a while. Looking back, what are the recording modes you use most? Compared to simpler cameras, you have access to several advanced recording options. Anyone of those you wouldn't want to be without? What have you learned using it?
 
Good questions! 4K raw at 24p has been the most common record mode for me, however that's largely due to the fact that 4k prores has not been available with the Odyssey 7Q until the most recent firmware release a week or so ago. Beyond that, I actually use the on-board MXF recording a lot as that is the most popular option for broadcasters. I would love to use the 12 bit 2k more, but DPX file sizes at that resolution give 4k raw a run for its money, and producers seem to be more impressed by the term "4K" than "2K" (especially after I explain to them that the resolution difference between 2K and HD is, well, basically nothing - unbelievable how many people actually think it's a big step up from HD resolution). However, the 2K from the C500 is soooo nice and DPX is pretty easy to convert to 2k Prores.

I don't use slow motion recording very often, but I'm happy to have it at my disposal when it works for the shot.

Now that 4k UHD ProRes is available, I expect that to become my de facto standard for most C500 shoots. However, I do wish that there were dnxhd options for the odyssey 7q since many of my clients cut in Avid. I would also really like compressed recording options for DCI 2k and 4k aspect ratios, so hopefully that will come soon.

One thing I've learned is that raw is pretty overrated and not necessary for the vast majority of shoots - although I'm guilty of using it as a selling point since it's such a buzzword for producers. Personally, I'd much rather have a debayered image in a strong (read high bit-rate and color depth) intra-frame codec. Anything lower than Prores in 4k I really don't consider a mastering format and prefer to avoid. I dislike inter-frame h.264 codecs for 4k video as they don't play well with many existing systems except the newest, and they can smear fine details, mitigating the ability to crop into your frame (which I find is one of the biggest benefits of shooting 4k).
 
Interesting, thanks for summarising!

I think you are nailing it with this:

cowpunk52 said:
Personally, I'd much rather have a debayered image in a strong (read high bit-rate and color depth) intra-frame codec.
Click to expand...

I've been wondering about the 2k 12-bit files. You confirm my suspicions regarding file size... =) Anyway, 4k 10-bit intra frame goes a long way I guess.

Taking recent events and rumours into account, your wait for DCI 4k and 2k should hopefully come sooner rather than later. I know Shogun should have it early (January) 2015 and that should put enough pressure on CD to update the 7Q as well.
 
One thing I want to add is that the reason I think that raw is not necessary with most shoots is that the C500 image looks so good out of the box, I don't need to rely on extensive grading to get incredibly beautiful color and skin tones that easily rival the Alexa. It's images are impressive in a broad range of lighting conditions, whether day exteriors in full sun, or night shoots with limited to no supplementation. I like knowing I can count on getting a great image in camera vs worrying about what I'm going to have to fix in post CC - because there often isn't time or budget for me to be involved.
 
Yes. Having looked at Shane's direct comparisons with various cameras, the C500 definitely doesn't have anything to hide.

Some people like to use raw as an excuse/fallback for sloppy camera work, but if they can't get the C500 to work—well, it's not the camera.
 
I have a c 500 and while i realize that some or all of its capabilities might be eclipsed by a c300 Mk2 release, having the c500 has been useful in the last year. At the very least the 500 can play as a companion to my C300 in a 2 camera shoot recording to CF cards. I have a O7Q which was a disappointment at first as a recorder ( but never as a monitor) but the 07Q has grown with successive firmware updates and is quite a bit more useful now than it was a year ago. So with the 7Q now in play especially with pro res recording options, the 500 with its higher bit rate has been of use. One thing that the O7Q does not do is 12 bit 1920x1080 which the Pix 240 does. I can tell you that the 1920x1080 12 bit pro res is a really fat codec that opens all kinds of possibilities in terms of grading.
The C500 also has some extended color gamuts which are good options, and yes the camera itself performs well in 4k. A recent shoot I did in 4 K mode recorded to Pro res with a Aja Quad - as required by the motion graphics folks at the client - showed the camera had very little noise which made the compositor happy because there was going to be a a lot of scaling- set extensions , etc and the finaly product was going to be displayed on very large screens.
 
cowpunk52 said:
Good questions! 4K raw at 24p has been the most common record mode for me, however that's largely due to the fact that 4k prores has not been available with the Odyssey 7Q until the most recent firmware release a week or so ago. Beyond that, I actually use the on-board MXF recording a lot as that is the most popular option for broadcasters. I would love to use the 12 bit 2k more, but DPX file sizes at that resolution give 4k raw a run for its money, and producers seem to be more impressed by the term "4K" than "2K" (especially after I explain to them that the resolution difference between 2K and HD is, well, basically nothing - unbelievable how many people actually think it's a big step up from HD resolution). However, the 2K from the C500 is soooo nice and DPX is pretty easy to convert to 2k Prores.

I don't use slow motion recording very often, but I'm happy to have it at my disposal when it works for the shot.

Now that 4k UHD ProRes is available, I expect that to become my de facto standard for most C500 shoots. However, I do wish that there were dnxhd options for the odyssey 7q since many of my clients cut in Avid. I would also really like compressed recording options for DCI 2k and 4k aspect ratios, so hopefully that will come soon.

One thing I've learned is that raw is pretty overrated and not necessary for the vast majority of shoots - although I'm guilty of using it as a selling point since it's such a buzzword for producers. Personally, I'd much rather have a debayered image in a strong (read high bit-rate and color depth) intra-frame codec. Anything lower than Prores in 4k I really don't consider a mastering format and prefer to avoid. I dislike inter-frame h.264 codecs for 4k video as they don't play well with many existing systems except the newest, and they can smear fine details, mitigating the ability to crop into your frame (which I find is one of the biggest benefits of shooting 4k).
Click to expand...


I have found that I would much rather shoot 12 bit than RAW. For me the having the additional color depth is much more important than the pixels. The extra color depth just looks so good and grades beautifully, once you work with it you never want to go back. Bottom line is if the Odyssey 7Q could record 120fps to a compressed codec and offered ProRes444 12bit I would be a happy guy. I also agree DNxHD is a must my main clients use Avid too. I just recently upgraded my C500's firmware and downloaded the new LUT's Canon has available on their website and was really impressed with the look of the image in Resolve after applying the LUTs.
 
For what it is worth, when I was at Camerimage in Poland recently Steven Poster was showing clips from Amityville The Awakening. He shot it c500 12 bit 2k claimed it was better than 2k 10bit. Shane Hurlbut claimed in testing there was no difference and shot Fathers and Daughters 2k 10bit. Both have said they don't think 4k is worth the hassle.

edit- and by the way at IBC I saw a c500 upgraded to rec2020 played through the Canon rec2020, $45,000 4k monitor. The color was stunning.

Whoever doesn't think that Canon is in the game is not hitting the long ball.
 
Last edited:
Mark Smith said:
I have a c 500 and while i realize that some or all of its capabilities might be eclipsed by a c300 Mk2 release, having the c500 has been useful in the last year. At the very least the 500 can play as a companion to my C300 in a 2 camera shoot recording to CF cards. I have a O7Q which was a disappointment at first as a recorder ( but never as a monitor) but the 07Q has grown with successive firmware updates and is quite a bit more useful now than it was a year ago. So with the 7Q now in play especially with pro res recording options, the 500 with its higher bit rate has been of use. One thing that the O7Q does not do is 12 bit 1920x1080 which the Pix 240 does. I can tell you that the 1920x1080 12 bit pro res is a really fat codec that opens all kinds of possibilities in terms of grading.
The C500 also has some extended color gamuts which are good options, and yes the camera itself performs well in 4k. A recent shoot I did in 4 K mode recorded to Pro res with a Aja Quad - as required by the motion graphics folks at the client - showed the camera had very little noise which made the compositor happy because there was going to be a a lot of scaling- set extensions , etc and the finaly product was going to be displayed on very large screens.
Click to expand...

Interesting what you are saying here about scaling and display on large screens as the c500 (and 1dc I think) are up on the ISS filming for transfer to omnimax.
 
lightstrum said:
For what it is worth, when I was at Camerimage in Poland recently Steven Poster was showing clips from Amityville The Awakening. He shot it c500 12 bit 2k claimed it was better than 2k 10bit. Shane Hurlbut claimed in testing there was no difference and shot Fathers and Daughters 2k 10bit. Both have said they don't think 4k is worth the hassle.

edit- and by the way at IBC I saw a c500 upgraded to rec2020 played through the Canon rec2020, $45,000 4k monitor. The color was stunning.

Whoever doesn't think that Canon is in the game is not hitting the long ball.
Click to expand...


I have shot lots of 10 and 12 bit from my experience 12bit looks and grades better especially within skin tones. I have a two week shoot coming up and am looking forward to working with the new color space LUT's. From my initial camera tests they really make the colors pop especially rec 2020 & DCI-P3+.

I agree with you the image produced by Canon EOS cameras is a force to be reckoned with they just desperately need some sort of update to keep up with the rest.
 
Mark Smith said:
I can tell you that the 1920x1080 12 bit pro res is a really fat codec that opens all kinds of possibilities in terms of grading.
Click to expand...


Although the Odyssey 7Q has come a long way I wish that CD would finally implement a prores444 12bit codec that would be a real game changer for the C500. It would allow a realistic real world workflow giving more than 74 minutes roll time per TB.
 
I thought the 7Q already supports 12bit from the C500 and records it in DPX. format, no? You can transcode them to any compressed codec you want in post with one simple step.

Also is the Canon Raw 10bit while the non-raw RGB mode is 12bit ? Strange if true. RAW is o un-defined that it's become to have no actual meaning other than non-debayred.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I thought the 7Q already supports 12bit from the C500 and records it in DPX. format, no? You can transcode them to any compressed codec you want in post with one simple step.

Also is the Canon Raw 10bit while the non-raw RGB mode is 12bit ? Strange if true. RAW is o un-defined that it's become to have no actual meaning other than non-debayred.
Click to expand...


Yes you are correct the 7Q does do 12bit DPX. In our workflow though we pretty much always take it to 444 before doing anything with it so if the recorder did that for us it would be helpful. Also, as far as SSD's and roll time 444 would be more workable in the field.

You are also correct Canon Raw is 10 not 12bit. Strange but true.
 
cowpunk52 said:
Now that 4k UHD ProRes is available, I expect that to become my de facto standard for most C500 shoots. However, I do wish that there were dnxhd options for the odyssey 7q since many of my clients cut in Avid. I would also really like compressed recording options for DCI 2k and 4k aspect ratios, so hopefully that will come soon.
Click to expand...
Please note that with the latest firmware we did introduce both 4K ProRes to 30p as well as UHD ProRes to 30p for the C500. Set your camera to true 4K (4096x2160) instead of QHD (3840x2160) and the Odyssey7Q should auto-detect the signal. Occasionally it misses the flag noting the difference when switching between the formats. If this happens, unplug one of the SDI feeds and then re-insert it to re-boot the signal detection subroutine.
 
cowpunk52 said:
One thing I want to add is that the reason I think that raw is not necessary with most shoots is that the C500 image looks so good out of the box, I don't need to rely on extensive grading to get incredibly beautiful color and skin tones that easily rival the Alexa. It's images are impressive in a broad range of lighting conditions, whether day exteriors in full sun, or night shoots with limited to no supplementation. I like knowing I can count on getting a great image in camera vs worrying about what I'm going to have to fix in post CC - because there often isn't time or budget for me to be involved.
Click to expand...
I must say that in the recent video we produced showing the new Odyssey7Q in use with a variety of cameras including the C500, the Canon material was certainly the easiest to grade. Took almost no time and looked brilliant, in fact noticeably so.
 
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