C300: C300MKIII at NAB????
- Thread starter chris f
- Start date
George Loch
Well-known member
Well, nevermind. Arri just announced the Alexa Mini LF so, I'll opt for that instead of the XT3.
....off to the mortage officer and the pawn store.
....off to the mortage officer and the pawn store.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Ha, ha, pretty nice camera. I have to say though, I have been messing with our Cinema RAW Light and for what we used it for on our documentary, it's a damn impressive format. I've been looking at the recent spate of YT videos comparing the C200 with the existing Alexa Mini and I know the Alexas are the best cameras on the market in my opinion for what I like in the image. But it's amazing at how close the C200 can look when shot properly. A little of the same from the X-T3, it can look nearly as good as the C200 with the right lens and lighting, it's a really impressive imager.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Slippery slope. C200 RAW can look almost as good as the Alexa Mini, X-T3 can look almost as good as the C200, C100 can look almost as good as X-T3, GH2 (I just bought one (Francis Ford Capolla said it looked better than film and Alexa! ;-))) can look almost as good as C100, latest cell phone can look almst as good as GH2...THEREFORE, latest cell phone can look almost as good as Alexa Mini.
Meanwhile, pro productions with a budget never want "almost as good as" unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
I'm with George, though. Forget these cruddy Canon cameras and get the Arri Alexa Mini LF. Go Arri or go home.
George Loch
Well-known member
I personally like the image of the C200 and would rather work with it over a Red in general. I don't think it get's enough love for what it does at $6-7k.
-gl
puredrifting
Major Contributor
We shot about 10% of our film on the RED Epic and I have to say, the C200 images, for what we were shooting and how we were shooting, I liked better.
The RED wasn't bad, but so quirky and picky operationally, heavy, awkward, PITA, it's really made for crewed production with ACs, then they are capable of beautiful images.
But probably one of the worst cameras for documentary shooting.
Last edited:
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I agree. If I was making films in the space with real budgets, I'd shoot Arri all of the way, they are simply the best camera on the market.
I've worked on many projects and shot with the Alexa Mini and Amiras. But when you are low to no budget, these cheaper, smaller cameras are pretty amazingly capable these days.
It's always a function of budget (or lack ot if) for me.
This is waaaayyy off the OP post.
Anyone going to the Alexa Mini LF event on 4/5 in Brooklyn? I'll be there.
Nah, the Mini LF is a rental. My philosophy is own the cheap stuff (like XT3), everything else is a rental.
Unless you want to start a rental house operation, which is a true and valid business.
That's also because the cheap stuff is incredibly good these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=f8Anpc-tv3w
Unless you want to start a rental house operation, which is a true and valid business.
That's also because the cheap stuff is incredibly good these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=f8Anpc-tv3w
Stills2HDConvert
Well-known member
The market between $3K and RED, ARRI is getting pretty soft.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I consider myself a DP with a rental house. I typically don't rent out my gear unless I'm either the DP or subcontracting out a DP who works for me with my gear, but as a rental house I can continually buy more gear as long as I can find clients to rent it, and as such would consider the purchase of the Alexa Mini LF. I find this business model much more profitable than simply working at labor rate with cheap cameras that have low rental rates.
I just took a photo of my current collection of cameras I own.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I consider myself a DP with a rental house. I typically don't rent out my gear unless I'm either the DP or subcontracting out a DP who works for me with my gear, but as a rental house I can continually buy more gear as long as I can find clients to rent it, and as such would consider the purchase of the Alexa Mini LF. I find this business model much more profitable than simply working at labor rate with cheap cameras that have low rental rates.
I just took a photo of my current collection of cameras I own.
Impressive collection Eric. I still find it funny that this package of six cameras, not including the lenses, barely costs more than what we used to pay for a single top of the line Betacam back in the day. This is probably closer to two Betacams, but still...
So trying to understand your business model, do you actually rent out packages to other DPs and production companies, or Sharegrid them or just rent them out to clients on your own shoots?
ARRI stands on its own since they don't make a low-medium priced/entry level product. Red's selection starts at what, about $12-15K? Sony has a big gap between FS-7 and F55. Canon has a big gap between 300 MKII and C700. Panasonic, at least, has EVA1 and LT. Fuji, Olympus and Nikon don't even compete in the video pro sector (Norbert, I am not going to bring up the cartel again!). I think it's the calm before the storm.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
The latter, I just rent them out to my clients on my shoots (aside from rare cases of friends renting them). Occasionally I'll double book and hire a DP and have them use my equipment so I can get the rental from that, while keeping the equipment with people I trust to treat it well since they're working for me and have worked with me before.
I don't really like renting it out to strangers for a few reasons; one, I don't trust them to take good care of it ("It's a rental don't be gentle"), two, if they change settings, organization, or configurations it can mess me up on my own shoots, three, I enjoy DP work but running a rental house isn't my idea of fun, and four, I make a much higher rate when booked as a DP with gear than when someone rents say one camera, and if I have to turn down a job as a DP with gear because an individual item is rented out (not quite as likely now with three of each body, but still), then I could be turning down a more profitable opportunity.
For me it's always about maximizing my day rate as a DP with gear. For a three Arri shoot with my lenses, lighting, etc., I could charge about $7k for one day of work (and a bit more once I add the 17-120 to my collection), plus possible crew up-charges. Can't do anywhere near that kind of rate with just one C300 Mark II. About half of my shoots are multi-cam, mostly with C300s, and that's been very profitable owning multiple C300 bodies. When a client asks for multi-cam, I've in the past had a hard time convincing them to upgrade to the Amira, because I personally don't feel that an Amira plus a C300 in a multi-cam shoot is much of an upgrade over two C300s, since you've then got to deal with matching cameras, whereas two Amiras vs two C300s is much more of an upgrade, so having three bodies for up to three camera shoots (which is typically the most I need) will hopefully lead to more lucrative Amira shoots as it has had many well paid C300 shoots. I think I can also set myself apart as an Amira owner/op as there are occasional multi-cam Amira shoots where the producers have to scurry to find enough owner/ops or rental units and many cities don't have that many Amira bodies, and coupled with my great willingness to drive long distances (up to 600 or so miles) to a job without charging for travel (since I'm making so much for gear rental travel fees become negligible, but people are more willing to hire if you work as a local) I think it can put me in a good spot (as it has with the C300s).
Now some of my multi-cam gigs are just me as the op (saying manning two static for a sit down interviews) and others are with additional camera operators. I do a good amount of crewing as well and up-charge for crew rates of course. The way I see it is why should I hire other owner/ops with their gear when I can own the gear and make the profit myself, while either hiring crew that don't own their own gear or other own/ops who are willing to come out at labor rate.
I also got the last two Amiras on the used market pretty cheap. The Minis have much less discount on the used market, plus cost about $10k more when new. The rental rate between a Mini and Amira are pretty similar, but a used Amira can be bought for much less money, so easier to recoup the cost of. The Mini is more popular in the narrative and commercial world, but most narrative work doesn't pay as well, and the doc/corporate world of the Amira is more likely to need multiple cameras, resulting in higher rates.
Whether or not I get the Alexa Mini LF would likely depend on how profitable owning multiple Amira bodies turns out, as well as if I venture into more commercial work (which I want to do) or higher paid narrative work.
Last edited:
Hey Eric, you're going for the rental house model and in your market it sounds like it's working well for you. I've heard the higher end market in different cities can be really underserved and presents opportunity.
Here in NYC you can rent a C300M2 for $130/d on Sharegrid. I have rented this exact camera for multicam shoots, and others. So far so good. Maybe I've been lucky. Adorama really started changing the rental market here (or so I think) a number of years ago, followed by mini Adoramas and now Sharegrid and Kitsplit and other peer to peer rental operations. When I started renting C300M2s for $130 or $175 with 24-70/2.8 or 70-200/2.8 I really questioned owning gear in an equipment saturated market. It's not like less and less gear is constantly coming online. There's also a ton of dp's with good gear (Alexa's, Minis, Reds, F55), so very competitive marketplace locally.
Local markets can , and should dictate business decisions.
So hats off to you Eric, looks like you developed a business model that's really working well. Or, you've made it work really well. Which is difficult.
Here in NYC you can rent a C300M2 for $130/d on Sharegrid. I have rented this exact camera for multicam shoots, and others. So far so good. Maybe I've been lucky. Adorama really started changing the rental market here (or so I think) a number of years ago, followed by mini Adoramas and now Sharegrid and Kitsplit and other peer to peer rental operations. When I started renting C300M2s for $130 or $175 with 24-70/2.8 or 70-200/2.8 I really questioned owning gear in an equipment saturated market. It's not like less and less gear is constantly coming online. There's also a ton of dp's with good gear (Alexa's, Minis, Reds, F55), so very competitive marketplace locally.
Local markets can , and should dictate business decisions.
So hats off to you Eric, looks like you developed a business model that's really working well. Or, you've made it work really well. Which is difficult.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Sharegrid and Kitsplit are undercutting the rental market and not doing any good for rental houses. I haven't tried them but I know a guy with an Alexa Mini who said when he put his on there, Sharegrid recommended something like $700 or $800 for "fair market price," and he put it at around $1200 (I see $1080 now) which is actually a more fair market price. Basically, they're intentionally encouraging lower rates there to undercut rental houses (so they can get more commission).
Fortunately for me since I'm more a "DP with gear" than a straight up rental house, if someone questions my rental rates (in relation to rental houses or elsewhere, not in regards to budget as sometimes I'll work with a client's budget) it's clear they're more concerned about gear than my skillset and I'll often pass on the job/they won't hire me because my rates are too high. Like, sure, they can get things cheaper from Sharegrid (or Magnaminous which rents out Arris on the cheap), but then they're not getting my skillset as well as the simplicity of me bringing everything including the 100 accessories that items from rental houses don't come with. I've had at least a few clients who wanted me to come on as a cam op with my Arri for their DP (flying in from L.A. as the cliche goes) to use, and I just quoted them my regular DP with gear rates, and they typically don't go for that, and I'm okay with that. I don't really like cam opping under a DP as I like DPing (being in charge instead of a button pusher under a DP's instructions), but I'll still do it on rare occasions if the rate is high enough or the DP seems really cool/has really good work.
Even if a client can find a really talented DP who is willing to work at labor rate and then try to save a bit of money by sourcing the cheapest rental sources, the DP (and AC) will have to spend extra time on set rigging and figuring out all of the rented equipment which an owner/op is well versed with and often has pre-rigged.
The last time I cam opped, a few months ago, we were shooting an interview of Buzz Aldrin, they were renting three of my C300s and my cinema zooms (and other gear), so I was making a good rate, and they flew in their DP from L.A. His narrative work looked really good, but he was also a recent film school graduate (from some big film school), which made me think perhaps his short films looked good in large part because he had spent a small fortune on his education (and thus the budgets, crew, and equipment available for his films)...meanwhile, he had little interviewing experience (no samples on his site) and ended up making very rookie mistakes like keying from the wrong side for a one person interview, breaking the 180 degree rule for a three camera interview, keying a two person interview with the lights directly above them instead of keying from the correct side (despite the grip gear available being capable), having a movable garbage can in the background of an interview, blown out windows in the background because he over-diffused the lights making them not powerful enough to balance (or could have chosen a different background). It's situations like that which I try to avoid as a DP, shaking my head at a DP's mistakes while I'm forced to cam op and mostly keep my mouth shut. But, celebrity interview with a good rate made it worth it.
I rent my C300 Mark II package with a tripod, media, batteries, and accessories (C200 monitor, third party handles, etc.) for $600 per day (no discounts for multi-day). Sounds more expensive than say LensRentals but once you factor in all the extras I package in it's a pretty similar price, with that added benefit of the producer not needing the headache of sourcing a separate rental.
I also outright own all of my gear and live a zero debt life right now (until I buy a house with a mortgage).
Fortunately for me since I'm more a "DP with gear" than a straight up rental house, if someone questions my rental rates (in relation to rental houses or elsewhere, not in regards to budget as sometimes I'll work with a client's budget) it's clear they're more concerned about gear than my skillset and I'll often pass on the job/they won't hire me because my rates are too high. Like, sure, they can get things cheaper from Sharegrid (or Magnaminous which rents out Arris on the cheap), but then they're not getting my skillset as well as the simplicity of me bringing everything including the 100 accessories that items from rental houses don't come with. I've had at least a few clients who wanted me to come on as a cam op with my Arri for their DP (flying in from L.A. as the cliche goes) to use, and I just quoted them my regular DP with gear rates, and they typically don't go for that, and I'm okay with that. I don't really like cam opping under a DP as I like DPing (being in charge instead of a button pusher under a DP's instructions), but I'll still do it on rare occasions if the rate is high enough or the DP seems really cool/has really good work.
Even if a client can find a really talented DP who is willing to work at labor rate and then try to save a bit of money by sourcing the cheapest rental sources, the DP (and AC) will have to spend extra time on set rigging and figuring out all of the rented equipment which an owner/op is well versed with and often has pre-rigged.
The last time I cam opped, a few months ago, we were shooting an interview of Buzz Aldrin, they were renting three of my C300s and my cinema zooms (and other gear), so I was making a good rate, and they flew in their DP from L.A. His narrative work looked really good, but he was also a recent film school graduate (from some big film school), which made me think perhaps his short films looked good in large part because he had spent a small fortune on his education (and thus the budgets, crew, and equipment available for his films)...meanwhile, he had little interviewing experience (no samples on his site) and ended up making very rookie mistakes like keying from the wrong side for a one person interview, breaking the 180 degree rule for a three camera interview, keying a two person interview with the lights directly above them instead of keying from the correct side (despite the grip gear available being capable), having a movable garbage can in the background of an interview, blown out windows in the background because he over-diffused the lights making them not powerful enough to balance (or could have chosen a different background). It's situations like that which I try to avoid as a DP, shaking my head at a DP's mistakes while I'm forced to cam op and mostly keep my mouth shut. But, celebrity interview with a good rate made it worth it.
I rent my C300 Mark II package with a tripod, media, batteries, and accessories (C200 monitor, third party handles, etc.) for $600 per day (no discounts for multi-day). Sounds more expensive than say LensRentals but once you factor in all the extras I package in it's a pretty similar price, with that added benefit of the producer not needing the headache of sourcing a separate rental.
I also outright own all of my gear and live a zero debt life right now (until I buy a house with a mortgage).
Last edited:
chris f
Veteran
I think this is a really good thing to keep in mind and a great reminder from Eric - real productions realize that gear prep time = money, so don't be afraid to raise the prices on your own rentals because built in to that price is the speed and familiarity that comes with the operator knowing the gear inside and out. If you are an owner/operator it's a lot easier to make money on rentals on gigs you're booking than it is just trying to rent your gear out on Sharegrid, etc. where you gear is just a commodity and there's no additional value in hiring the operator who can really maximize the time and output of the equipment.
While I don't have the quiver that Eric has, for me owning two C200's has been way more profitable than owning one (fill in blank of better, more expensive camera), because it's such an easy upsell to producers to bring a second camera on the shoot, especially after they've already decided to book you for who you are.
Last edited:
Great to hear you're swinging all that gear Eric. An Amira would be great but for what I do they are to big. I often do two camera interviews with C200's and I know the complexity when you start adding cameras to match all angles goes up for each camera. It must be frustrating to notice mistakes and just shut up when you're only the operator.