C300: C300 mkII rumours are getting serious

I'm wondering like my friend told me with the dragon upgrad on his Epic... you have to shell out the $ before you even know what your getting...
 
ReelWorksMedia said:
You are incorrect LeoGrey. The Weapon will be offered as a full purchase as well. The price is not known...but its not just for upgrades. It will be a stand alone system to those who want to purchase outright. The upgrade is there for those who have existing Dragons. Its just not offered to MX.

If the C300 rolled out at $16 and the Weapon was in the $24K range...its a price difference, yes, but something to seriously consider.
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if its an upgrade to the dragon, then it will DEFINITELY retail for more than the dragon currently does RealWorksMedia. The cheapest dragon is 30-50k to shoot, unless your referring to the 24k brain which is a useless box without 10-20k in add-ons. Regardless it's a camera targeted at a completely different demographic then the c300 will be
 
You are correct about the current costs. As you know from RED's history...you and I both know...they are capable of turning the market on its head. I wouldn't put it past them to do it again. Also....depending on specs...I could see the C500 get up there around $30K. Not out of the question.

Like I said...all day dreaming and speculation at this point.

NAB is definitely going to be good this year.
 
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It's a nice thought though :)

I do hope the rumors are true, but the one thing I keep scratching my head over is the codec. They had to have noticed the trend of cameras last year that were recording popular codecs internally(HUGE benefit).

I don't see that statement as having anything to do with "pricing". I see the c3 mkii likely coming in around the 10-12k(c300 being reduced to 8k until inventory is depleted).
 
If they're seeking a $15,000-$18,000 price point for a ready-to-shoot package, it would make some sense because there are currently no cameras in that range aside of the FS-7 Raw ... but, one would think they'd need to have something like a 10-bit internal Raw or a very high bit rate HEVC that's equivalent to ProRes 444, which is about 1 TB/hr. In other words, they'd have to jump far beyond the current C500.

It's definitely possible. The technology isn't a secret. It's just finding the right market niche and the good value for the consumer.

BTW, a few months, maybe even a year ago, a C200 was bandied about. If C300 is really going to be in mid-high teens, then an $8,000-$10,000 range C200 model wouldn't be among the dumbest things Canon might release. They can then do the same type of positioning as they have had with the C100-300-500 lineup. It's just that their new C100 MK II will be the HD low price leader.
 
DLD said:
If they're seeking a $15,000-$18,000 price point for a ready-to-shoot package, it would make some sense because there are currently no cameras in that range aside of the FS-7 Raw ... but, one would think they'd need to have something like a 10-bit internal Raw or a very high bit rate HEVC that's equivalent to ProRes 444, which is about 1 TB/hr. In other words, they'd have to jump far beyond the current C500.
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Things to keep in mind are that this is a mid-tier 2nd gen product. Prices on this tech typically stay the same or decrease, not rise.

Given the popularity of the fs7 and its features, I see canon being a little more aggressive. Aside from the much larger and more cumbersome f3, Canon had little competition at the time of launch. I think we will see a superior product priced aggressively(10k-12 range)
 
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LeoGrey said:
Things to keep in mind are that this is a mid-tier 2nd gen product. Prices on this tech typically stay the same or decrease, not rise.

Given the popularity of the fs7 and its features, I see canon being a little more aggressive...
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That is indeed the usual move but Canon could be bracketing FS7 on prices and features with two models - the hypothetical C-200 for around $7,500 and C-300 MK II for $15,000. That is something I would seriously consider in their case because they should be able to upgrade C-300 MKI into a 4K camera with only a minor change in processing power as a new C-200. In this scenario, they will want you to purchase the higher end camera but will settle for the entry level. The other way is for them is to go modular, as seems to be more and more popular these days, where the high end recording attachment - something akin to Shogun or Q7 but without the monitor - would come only with the 300 model.

Or they could release a video oriented 5D MK IV with 4K for about $5,000 and make it a superior DSLR style product on the market and then jump straight into 300. Then specs-wise, the lower priced option might lack a high end recording codec and/or bit rate while the high end could offer Raw or its facsimile.

Naturally, the variations are nearly endless but the general strategy precedents can be borrowed from other companies too.
 
Given all the R&D Canon put into their original sensor they’re probably looking to protect and maximize the margin on their mid to pro level camera. The C300 sold well for its time/market, with many companies & indie filmmakers buying them at 12-15k. I don’t think Canon will want to deviate too far from that pricing segment. They announced the first camera at 20k, listed it for 16k, and it currently sells for 12k (several years later). I figure they’ll announce the C300 mk2 at 16k, and sell it at 14~15k for early adopters/big corps, then bring it down to 13k in the upcoming year while they clear out any remaining C300s.

To counter the erosion from the lower end 4K mirrorless cams, the C300mk2 will need a higher spec Pro-Res-like compressed flavor of 4K, 10bit, 4:2:2 that can be recorded internally. I don’t think they’ll give away raw or 4:4:4 initially. The C300mk2 will probably be like a lite version of the C500 with more options for compressed recording capabilities and better cooling/heat sinking. Since the body style is now 3 years old, they probably learned a lot from their original C300/C500 design to refine things like power consumption and cooling.

I’m somewhat doubtful, but hopeful they will open up raw at this price point since they’ll be looking to protect the C500 (or whatever cam sits at the top of their line). With the ever increasing existing camera competition, they’ll need to have a strong hardware roadmap to handle 4K and higher bit depths. If they utilize CFast for media recording, firmware upgrades could easily allow for higher framerates as cards get faster and larger. 8 bit hardware encoding & compact flash media are probably the biggest tech limitations of the current cam, hampering higher bit depth/frame rates.

Ergonomics is where the Canon has so many of the other manufacturers beat. The button layout was the hands down best for run-n-gun shooting. If they keep the awesome battery life, and couple it with better specs like 10bit minimum (wish it was 12bit<), 4K, higher native ISO sensitivity (1250 or 2500) they’ll have a definite winner. Features like higher dynamic range (14+ stops), refined Dual Autofocus, Chromatic Aberration/Lens Vignetting removal, and higher frame rates would be the icing on the cake.

I also hope they improve upon the plastic handle and utilize a version of the C100’s swivel LCD. The two cable / weak handle construction of the original C300 was easily the worst part of the camera.
 
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Film Scientist said:
I also hope they improve upon the plastic handle and utilize a version of the C100’s swivel LCD. The two cable / weak handle construction of the original C300 was easily the worst part of the camera.
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Agree with everything in your post, ESPECIALLY the top handle! How it mounts to the camera is a joke and completely impractical for professional use(curious if they modified this at all with the 100 mk ii?). Many of us also hope they remove/make secondary the audio controls on the top handle.

The one variable I do see that could potentially keep the msrp in the mid-upper teens is their dpaf. It's such a convenient and powerful feature(especially with 4k).
 
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Film Scientist said:
... To counter the erosion from the lower end 4K mirrorless cams, the C300mk2 will need a higher spec Pro-Res-like compressed flavor of 4K, 10bit, 4:2:2 that can be recorded internally. I don’t think they’ll give away raw or 4:4:4 initially...
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FS7 is Raw capable at about $20,000? So, one would think that something like 444 quality - possibly in an HEVC form, as Canon is one of the major movers and shakers on that front - should be quite doable.

IMO, Canon also has to keep an eye on other market players such as Panasonic, who is rumored to release an AF-100 MFT replacement with some very impressive specs for ~ $4,000. Such a product, presuming it will be announced at the NAB'15 and shipped soon thereafter, will further compact the market, forcing a chain reaction of price adjustments across all makes and models.
 
DLD said:
Panasonic, who is rumored to release an AF-100 MFT replacement with some very impressive specs for ~ $4,000. Such a product, presuming it will be announced at the NAB'15 and shipped soon thereafter, will further compact the market, forcing a chain reaction of price adjustments across all makes and models.
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Panasonic has to get the ISO noise under control in MFT. It's bad at ISO 1600. I wouldn't touch it if it performed like the GH4. I owned the original AF-100 and at ISO 800 is wasn't pretty. The GH4 noise pattern vibrates. Noise reduction software has a tough time dealing with it. By the time you get it clean the detail is all gone. The JVC GY-LS300 4KCAM Handheld S35mm Camcorder is $4K and looks like it could be the best JVC has produced in forever.

Canon has the Dual Pixel thing that no one can touch. It's impressive and works so well with 3 axis gimbals making it a very well rounded camera. I like everyone else is hoping it doesn't cost more than $9K. If it does then I have to rethink my next camera but yes i'm holding out until after NAB.
 
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FrameFarmMedia said:
The FS7 is raw capable for a lot less than $20,000.
FS7 -$8K
XDCA-FS7 - $2K
O7Q. - $2.5K
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your forgetting batteries, memory cards, cables, ssd media and licenses(but still well under 20k)

DLD said:
IMO, Canon also has to keep an eye on other market players such as Panasonic.
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Panasonic's recent string of cameras have been very similar to gopro's, beautiful in broad daylight but not good for much else. They are competing more with blackmagic for market share then Sony or Canon right now. Indeed it could all change with just one product release, but more of a hailmary then any kind of certainty.

The last JVC product I owned was a VCR, great product but I'll be passing on their camera tech :)
 
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Though people are talking about shoulder mount, after the launch of Sony FS7, I won't touch anything that can't be placed well on a 3 axis gimbal. Smaller size is always a bonus as far as cameras are concerned.
 
I'm still having a hard time understanding why so many people on this board are so gung-ho on CFast 2.0
It's not upgradeable (AFAIK), it's overpriced and it's based on technology written for spinning magnetic platters that is now EOL'ed (SATA 3.0).

I often go out with more than 1TB of flash memory on C300 Doc jobs (internal 50Mbit/s codec)
That's $25,000 for the same run time with CFast 2.0/XQD 2.0 @ $6.25/GB and ProRes type codec in HD Resolution (4TB memory needed).
Compared to the guesstimated price of a hypothetical C300mk2, that's a significant part of the total ownership cost.
Particularly if I would have to switch to completely different memorycards all over again when upgrading to a hypothetical C300mk3.

Some of Canon's competitors (Sony, Nikon) have already chosen XQD as their memory card standard.
Curious what the competitive landscape will look like a few years down the road if Canon is stuck at 520Mbytes/s write (CFast 2) and their competitiors can write at over 3000Mbytes/s (XQD 4).

Of course, at the end of the day the camera with the best image wins, and we'll make the rest work; somehow.
 
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Calling it 'future proof' is a bit strange... are they considering HD now, so it will release w/HD internal?.... and with an add-on in the future, or paid upgrade, it'll get 4K ? :\ I would hope not, but who knows!
 
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