IMO, pro cameras will soon see 2-3 TB internal SSD's with the highest speed USB of the moment (presently 3.1) used to offload files. Right now, a 1TB Samsung (540 MB/s) is $499 retail. With the HEVC compression, a 4K ProRes 422 quality file can be squeezed into ~ 150 GB/hr size. Double it for 4444 and you can still get three hours worth of shots on 1 TB.
C300: C300 mkII rumours are getting serious
- Thread starter AndreeOnline
- Start date
What does the price of something have anything to do with losing a "critical take" on a paid gig? I was under the assumption that all takes on a paid gig were critical and losing any of them would be "absurd". Are you insinuating that because SD, CF and non-red SSD's are cheaper, that they will lose critical takes?
They are using technology that was standardized, designed and developed for personal AND enterprise level computing. They made small modifications(if any) to the pinouts, form factor, power circuitry and slapped an astronomical price tag on it.
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Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Ask Mitch Gross about the process they use to certify the ssd's that they use for the odyssey then get back to me.
chappelldigital
Well-known member
How many threads are there about which transcend cards will/wont work for 5diii raw, etc etc. Bad batches of cards, etc etc.
I've been doing video full-time only for the past 2 years. I've already hit several 'bad batches' of cards, and been lucky I weeded them out in testing before a paid gig.
I'll pay the premium to get a card/media I can trust.
I've been doing video full-time only for the past 2 years. I've already hit several 'bad batches' of cards, and been lucky I weeded them out in testing before a paid gig.
I'll pay the premium to get a card/media I can trust.
I think the majority of Computer makers are waiting for NVMe 1.2 standard SSDs before they go full force on implementing M.2 PCI-E SSDs. And yes, they are fast. Current offering shipping now from Samsung is over 1,500Mbytes/s write in 80mm length, I think... But it doesn't support NVMe. Apple will probably use that Samsung M.2 SSD, with their typical custom implementation.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
That's a good question. I wonder if there is significant difference between the SSDs that
the 7Q uses and what the Red uses?
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
You need to take into account the specific media that you are acquiring. RED footage needs to be as solid as possible at 5k-6k raw at very low compression rates. This is a high resolution format that they need to stamp their name...reputation...and brand on. I get that. I also get that it comes with a price tag because it's proprietary.
Are they making a profit...yes. They are more honest an up front than other companies about it. Moral of the story....if you can't afford the media...you shouldn't be looking at a $20k + rig anyway. If you can...you wouldn't have as much of a problem and would appreciate the RED quality control on their media.
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There is no smoke and mirrors here, this is a very simple process to figure out. You have a certain amount of data per cycle that needs to be read/written. It needs to be a robust system that is moving around in adverse conditions, and it needs to have certain fail safes in place for power failure.
In another life I was happily employed within the engineering department of one of the largest semi-conductor companies on the planet. Many of the algorithms we would throw at our server farm(2-6 thousand scalable machine clusters) would take weekends to calculate. These algorithms would often go through multiple automated cycles of read/write processes that required data rates that only solid state media or non volatile memory could provide. We were one of the largest development groups for 64 bit wafer design and our annual spending budget for hardware and electricity EASILY trumps anything RED spends during a fiscal year.
There seem to be a few posts referencing quality of media which has nothing to do with what I am referencing. There are PLENTY of enterprise/professional solutions on the market that offer products capable of sustaining the cycles required by these cameras.
As of right now a 512GB SSD from CD costs $795.00(extremely reasonable), the same exact REDMAG equivalent is $2450.00. So please do tell us how exactly Mitch/CD is able to provide a rock solid media solution without charging triple the price. Unless you are insinuating that because one solution is cheaper then another, that it's not suitable for those "critical takes". It's called price gouging
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
You are making a lot of assumptions.
Who says that CD and RED use the same ssds?
Who says that CD and RED use the same ssds?
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
There is no smoke and mirrors here, this is a very simple process to figure out. You have a certain amount of data per cycle that needs to be read/written. It needs to be a robust system that is moving around in adverse conditions, and it needs to have certain fail safes in place for power failure.
In another life I was happily employed within the engineering department of one of the largest semi-conductor companies on the planet. Many of the algorithms we would throw at our server farm(2-6 thousand scalable machine clusters) would take weekends to calculate. These algorithms would often go through multiple automated cycles of read/write processes that required data rates that only solid state media or non volatile memory could provide. We were one of the largest development groups for 64 bit wafer design and our annual spending budget for hardware and electricity EASILY trumps anything RED spends during a fiscal year.
There seem to be a few posts referencing quality of media which has nothing to do with what I am referencing. There are PLENTY of enterprise/professional solutions on the market that offer products capable of sustaining the cycles required by these cameras.
As of right now a 512GB SSD from CD costs $795.00(extremely reasonable), the same exact REDMAG equivalent is $2450.00. So please do tell us how exactly Mitch/CD is able to provide a rock solid media solution without charging triple the price. Unless you are insinuating that because one solution is cheaper then another, that it's not suitable for those "critical takes". It's called price gouging
you know who else sells proprietary hardware and software at a premium that can be matched in spec...Apple. Good example. There are still a large % of professionals turning major profits using their products...much like RED...and see quality in their logic...or at least accept the nature of what it takes to get that product to the customer, turn a profit, and solidify the excess into research and development of future tech.
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To be fair, Apple did this at first and the competition made them address it. Apple then used standard components and the competition beat them down on price. Currently, Apple is currently integrating components to disallow user upgrades but their prices are more in check, although not a 1:1. I believe manufacturers should be reasonable with their add-ons. But that is just me as a consumer. Ultimately, I want it to work near 100%. Its a trade off to be sure. Red charges a lot for their SSD media. That seems clear. But they are also selling a ton of cameras now so it must be ok......2 cents.
indiawilds
Veteran
In my previous life, I used to work in the World's largest mobile phone manufacturing plant and was in its management committee before I decided to pursue my passion. The question here is, Is RED making a profit out of media. Obviously Yes. Is it the only company to do so? Absolutely NO. No effort is spared to maximise profits. However, some corporates are blatant and assume that the customers won't know. However, things don't remain under the carpet for long. Some time back, someone had opened up a RED branded media and posted the images. That fellow was promptly thrown out from the forums and that story had reached many people. In the long term these things remain in the back of the mind of customers. However buying behaviour is dependent on many factors. So we cannot simply say that people will stop buying just because of one variable, namely supercharging proprietary media.As of right now a 512GB SSD from CD costs $795.00(extremely reasonable), the same exact REDMAG equivalent is $2450.00. So please do tell us how exactly Mitch/CD is able to provide a rock solid media solution without charging triple the price. Unless you are insinuating that because one solution is cheaper then another, that it's not suitable for those "critical takes". It's called price gouging
alaskacameradude
Veteran
I think the point is, that CD (like Red) is able to ensure critical takes in
a professional environment.....yet CD's prices are much less than
what Red charges for a SSD. So the question then is, is there a reason
that Red charges more? Possibly because some of their cameras record 5k
or 6k instead of 4k? I honestly don't know the full answer but suspect there
is a good bit of 'premium pricing' going on here from Red. Which is fine, if
they have a market and people willing to pay, go wild. I do think with other
options though at a cheaper price, that are still able to ensure critical takes
in a professional environment (like CD) the prices charged may come under
increased scrutiny....which is happening here.
Darren Levine
Veteran
way to stray fellas
ya'll let me know when this thread gets back on point
cheerios,
ya'll let me know when this thread gets back on point
cheerios,
I was reading an article somewhere recently that a simple oil change for a supercar (those priced above $500,000 in the US) was ~ $1,500. At the same time, you can drive into a local Jiffy Lube and receive the same service for your Honda Civic for $19.99.
So, yes, Red is gouging, as as other high end media manufacturers. Profit margins on the higher end cameras and lenses are also much higher than on the consumer/enthusiast level that are sold via mass retail chains. This is true in pretty much every industry - you can name your high end restaurant or hotel or cruise or ... anything - photo/video including. The key is that, over time, these prices become more competitive. What was deemed exclusively for the rich eventually becomes quite accessible to masses and one doesn't have to look much further than the computer that this post is written on. Or the post preceding it. Or following it.
I would say there are several ways to look at this exchange. As discussion of value - presuming that C-300 MK II will eventually come out - and the pricing power of the top market participants that are currently dominating the industry. Or about the SSD's.
I'll add that, as a $15,000 C300 became a huge seller and arguably the most popular pro level camera, perfectly suitable for most 1080p acquisition, it inevitable displaced some of its competitors priced much higher. As 4K moves into the sub-$10,000 category, it will inevitably effect the sales of the higher end Red, Sony and Panasonic products. Sony and Panasonic will quickly adopt and will seek to dominate the lower priced niche. Red I am less certain about.
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Joncarr
Well-known member
You guys complain about the prices of RED mags? Try buying a 512gb XR capture drive from ARRI. 1 or 2, an't gonna cut it, your need a minimum of 4 just to survive the day with a downloader on set. Over the years you complained about not having prores in you canons C-line? Try paying over 5k for a license from ARRI. Then another grand for quick time file option. How would you like to spend 1,500 bucks for a heated eyecup for your 9,200 dollar ARRI EVF? The point I'm trying to make is take it for what it is. Each time someone buys their first scarlet or BT REDone, the first thing they complain about is cost factor. If you complain about the cost of your equipment REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS, odds are you should not be investing your time and money into that equipment. But lets get back on topic.
My hopes for a c300 mark II
8 or 10 bit is my guess, but hoping for at least 12bit if they are doing 4k.
120fps at 1080. can't see them doing it at 4k or 1080 really, High speed will probably be reserved for the c500 mark II
A non plastic hot shoe top handle? Something that can support more then a lens then making cracking noises.
A removable lens mount, If RED, SONY and the AMIRA can do it, then why not canon? It might be seen as a smack in the CN-E owners face, but if they just approved Duclos lenses to do PL modified on the CN-E lenses. Then it might be in the future for removeable lens mounts in maybe the c300mk2 but defiantly in the c500mk2.
My hopes for a c300 mark II
8 or 10 bit is my guess, but hoping for at least 12bit if they are doing 4k.
120fps at 1080. can't see them doing it at 4k or 1080 really, High speed will probably be reserved for the c500 mark II
A non plastic hot shoe top handle? Something that can support more then a lens then making cracking noises.
A removable lens mount, If RED, SONY and the AMIRA can do it, then why not canon? It might be seen as a smack in the CN-E owners face, but if they just approved Duclos lenses to do PL modified on the CN-E lenses. Then it might be in the future for removeable lens mounts in maybe the c300mk2 but defiantly in the c500mk2.
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
Yep obviously many are forgetting the cost of the "use once only " medium called film in 400ft or 1200ft roles + processing + work prints + neg matching + answer prints + blah, blah , blah . Jon's right, Arri continuously hold the record for price "markups" Red is just following in the footsteps of the market leader in pro gear.
My hope for a new C300 . Is all the features of C500 with internalised raw recording or 4k pro res/ DNXHd without highlight aliase fringing that made the last one useless for green screen and created problems for backlight .
My hope for a new C300 . Is all the features of C500 with internalised raw recording or 4k pro res/ DNXHd without highlight aliase fringing that made the last one useless for green screen and created problems for backlight .