Budget for sound guy?
- Thread starter artistiam2
- Start date
That is why rather than insult or spend a lot of effort advertising for a sound pro when you really don't have the money, it is better to do it yourself or draft someone you can rely on and educate them. Sure, they won't be anywhere near a sound pro, but often it'll do - how do I know, because I've done it... I never even touched a mic, and was given some instruction by the folks at Coffee Sound (today Trew), and I was able to boom and mix a few shorts, and let me say, the sound was excellent (except that one time I was getting Mexican radio on my boom). So it can be done. It's soul killing to offer someone $150 a day, when you know it's an insult. I've drafted my wife, and I've drafted friends. Here's what you do - first, know exactly how you are going to be shooting, check out all the sound problems you might have (including environment - is there construction going on during the week, is there AC on during the weekend? And so on). Go through the whole thing to spot what it is that you will need, the equipment and the conditions. That you should do anyway, regardless. Then, once you know what you need, train your wife/friend/slave in doing the sound work, show them the equipment, do some trial recording etc. - that's a couple of days work. Think of it this way: you were going to shell out $1500 for 10 days, and all you'd do is insult the sound person. Instead, give 2 days to going through the process - you will save $1500, wow, that's decent pay for 2 days work, no? Plus think of what you will gain - you will know ahead of time what problems might be encountered and workarounds.
This has been my philosophy all along. Don't bother putting in those crazy ads on CL and other places like Mandy "bring all your gear and work for free and maybe you'll get a donut at lunch". It makes you feel bad, and has bad results. DIY is the name of the game. Go do it - you will learn a lot... and you'll learn even more (as I did) when you do post... that's when you'll curse the moron who did the production sound (the moron, is of course you) - but you'll learn what to do and not do next time around. The obvious danger - you'll get sh|t results... but that's where your diligence and sense of adventure come in. Do the very best you can, because nobody will do it for you. You get to do all the work and reap all the glory (or shame).
Same goes for everything else that you can do yourself. Don't bother trawling for pros when you can't pay pros - it's stupid and not nice either. I am proud to say, I have never offered insulting money to any pro - I either try to pay their rate, or do without.
Also props to the OP for diligence - to keep listening since 2010 shows uncommon determination and not giving up, that's why this thread is still going.
This has been my philosophy all along. Don't bother putting in those crazy ads on CL and other places like Mandy "bring all your gear and work for free and maybe you'll get a donut at lunch". It makes you feel bad, and has bad results. DIY is the name of the game. Go do it - you will learn a lot... and you'll learn even more (as I did) when you do post... that's when you'll curse the moron who did the production sound (the moron, is of course you) - but you'll learn what to do and not do next time around. The obvious danger - you'll get sh|t results... but that's where your diligence and sense of adventure come in. Do the very best you can, because nobody will do it for you. You get to do all the work and reap all the glory (or shame).
Same goes for everything else that you can do yourself. Don't bother trawling for pros when you can't pay pros - it's stupid and not nice either. I am proud to say, I have never offered insulting money to any pro - I either try to pay their rate, or do without.
Also props to the OP for diligence - to keep listening since 2010 shows uncommon determination and not giving up, that's why this thread is still going.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I would only add that some of that is market dependant. You are in LA and the bar is at a pretty decent level so folks are going to tell you if it sounds like Cr@p and you don't want to be embarrassed by your sound. Also there is decently paying work most of the time.
Smaller markets don't nec. live by the same rules. $150 a day is not always an insult, as long as you are not paying the DP $600/ day. Also the bar is SO LOW in some places that people just don't realize how bad their sound is. I saw a very nice documentary in Detroit, well shot but just HORRIBLE sound. I went up to the filmmaker and offered to put in some time for free to at least balance the cuts out a bit and do some noise reduction. As it exists the levels go from ear splitting to inaudible randomly and there is some serious wind issues.
Anyway the director knew there were a few "sound issues" but he didn't think it was worth it to deal with. It got play locally because it's on a hot topic but it is never going to get any play out side the area. A festival would be crazy to present it in it's current state to a paying audience.
I was judging a local film festival (really small but still...) there was only one entry that had decent sound. The rest went from unbearable all the way up to just unpleasant. There were two I disqualified as being unplayable and this festival had the above mentioned doc. in it and that one I didn't disqualify so you can imagine how bad the two were.
Basically none of the folks thought there was anything more than "some slight issues" with the sound.
For all of them a few days with someone who had some standards would make a world of difference.
Even in the SF Bay Area, which was a bit of a sound center for a number of years, a lot of low budget films are done by directors that just don't know the difference between good and not in terms of sound.
Smaller markets don't nec. live by the same rules. $150 a day is not always an insult, as long as you are not paying the DP $600/ day. Also the bar is SO LOW in some places that people just don't realize how bad their sound is. I saw a very nice documentary in Detroit, well shot but just HORRIBLE sound. I went up to the filmmaker and offered to put in some time for free to at least balance the cuts out a bit and do some noise reduction. As it exists the levels go from ear splitting to inaudible randomly and there is some serious wind issues.
Anyway the director knew there were a few "sound issues" but he didn't think it was worth it to deal with. It got play locally because it's on a hot topic but it is never going to get any play out side the area. A festival would be crazy to present it in it's current state to a paying audience.
I was judging a local film festival (really small but still...) there was only one entry that had decent sound. The rest went from unbearable all the way up to just unpleasant. There were two I disqualified as being unplayable and this festival had the above mentioned doc. in it and that one I didn't disqualify so you can imagine how bad the two were.
Basically none of the folks thought there was anything more than "some slight issues" with the sound.
For all of them a few days with someone who had some standards would make a world of difference.
Even in the SF Bay Area, which was a bit of a sound center for a number of years, a lot of low budget films are done by directors that just don't know the difference between good and not in terms of sound.
GaryNattrass
Veteran
Sadly these days in the Uk audio post is sometimes more about audio recovery. :shocked:
Even at the BBC where I am currently on a years contract as a sound supervisor some of the location audio that goes through my desk is quite shocking.
Even at the BBC where I am currently on a years contract as a sound supervisor some of the location audio that goes through my desk is quite shocking.
Ed Jeffersen
Active member
HA HA maybe YOU should do the audio and hire a camera operator instead!
TyFord
Well-known member
I posted an ad on Mandy for a sound guy. Since I'm on a ultra low budget I posted in no/low/deferred.
I've talked to at least 5 or 6 guys, and everyone that I talked to went on to tell me about how much they paid for their equipment. It's kind of frustrating that I worked extra hours to afford good sound.
My budget was $1,500 for 10 days. Which I think is not a slap in the face (I didn't place an ad that said work with an award winning filmmaker for credit, donuts, and fifty bucks).
So as a last resort(not in a bad way) I purchased Barry Green's sound for TV/Film which was amazing by the way.
Research led to the following equipment (I'm shooting on 7d)
Bought zoom h4n
Bought Oktava mk012 - Indoor
Bought Rode NTG-3 - Outdoor
AudioTechnica xlr inputs
The blimp for wind and that extra stuff.
Yeah, you're off base with your figures and should have bought the Canon 5D mk iii which actually can record decent audio if you know what you're doing. If you want low budget sound for a low budget film, you'll be fine.
Regards,
Ty Ford
I've talked to at least 5 or 6 guys, and everyone that I talked to went on to tell me about how much they paid for their equipment. It's kind of frustrating that I worked extra hours to afford good sound.
My budget was $1,500 for 10 days. Which I think is not a slap in the face (I didn't place an ad that said work with an award winning filmmaker for credit, donuts, and fifty bucks).
So as a last resort(not in a bad way) I purchased Barry Green's sound for TV/Film which was amazing by the way.
Research led to the following equipment (I'm shooting on 7d)
Bought zoom h4n
Bought Oktava mk012 - Indoor
Bought Rode NTG-3 - Outdoor
AudioTechnica xlr inputs
The blimp for wind and that extra stuff.
Yeah, you're off base with your figures and should have bought the Canon 5D mk iii which actually can record decent audio if you know what you're doing. If you want low budget sound for a low budget film, you'll be fine.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I will disagree with the "you get what you pay for" crowd. It's true sometimes but not always. Documentary folks live on getting a lot more than they pay for. Theatre for the most part survives on getting a LOT more than they pay for.
IF you have a commercial venture and you are trying to low ball folks then you can go take a long walk off a short pier. But that isn't my take on your project.
I did post on a first time feature directors film for a few points. Deferred BTW will turn off anybody who knows what they are doing. Points are a long shot but like a lotto ticket every once in awhile they pay off.
Anyway not only did I do post but I got them two days on a real mix stage for the cost of the 2" master tape (it was a number of years ago). I was between films at the time and the mixer was also between shows. He has mixed a fair number of John Waters films and I was between a couple of low budget ($30+ mill) features.
The production mixer was a DP who wanted to get some sound experience and she did it for gas money and some of the sound equipment, so right about in your $1,500 range.
Now this was a number of years ago so inflation would put the numbers a bit higher.
But the reasons the deals were made stay the same. A really good script, a real leader as a director who understood that sound was important and was VERY appreciative of the folks who were essentially underwriting his production. There was nobody making money off the project, no "star" or DP getting anything close to a real rate, and the director was going into hock up to his ears to get it done. His mother and girl friend were feeding the crew very well and everyone got essentially gas money.
And I'm not a freak of nature. While at Skywalker the down time on the mix stages were quite often filled with various peoples low budget projects. Fantasy always had a number of no paying projects floating around. A good sound editor working freelance probably only works 50% of the year. They want to keep their skills tuned so you will often find them doing a bit of time on some project as a favor.
So with the right project and the right leadership you can get a lot more than you pay (cash) for.
But it also requires the right market. You need to be where there are a lot of professionals and at a time when they are working enough that they can take on something that isn't paying decently. So 80's and 90's in the Bay Area was a really good time and place. After 2000 it was a bit harder with industry down turns and such. Not sure what it is right now but three years ago you could still get someone decent for way under rate work, with the right project.
And I have a few time worked for absolute scums. Usually though those were gigs I took because they payed decently. Actually I can't think of any no/low gigs I have quit on where I have walk away from a few low/mid gigs that were run by crooks and scum. There have been some "challenging" big budget films, but if they are throwing money at everybody a lot can be put up with.
IF you have a commercial venture and you are trying to low ball folks then you can go take a long walk off a short pier. But that isn't my take on your project.
I did post on a first time feature directors film for a few points. Deferred BTW will turn off anybody who knows what they are doing. Points are a long shot but like a lotto ticket every once in awhile they pay off.
Anyway not only did I do post but I got them two days on a real mix stage for the cost of the 2" master tape (it was a number of years ago). I was between films at the time and the mixer was also between shows. He has mixed a fair number of John Waters films and I was between a couple of low budget ($30+ mill) features.
The production mixer was a DP who wanted to get some sound experience and she did it for gas money and some of the sound equipment, so right about in your $1,500 range.
Now this was a number of years ago so inflation would put the numbers a bit higher.
But the reasons the deals were made stay the same. A really good script, a real leader as a director who understood that sound was important and was VERY appreciative of the folks who were essentially underwriting his production. There was nobody making money off the project, no "star" or DP getting anything close to a real rate, and the director was going into hock up to his ears to get it done. His mother and girl friend were feeding the crew very well and everyone got essentially gas money.
And I'm not a freak of nature. While at Skywalker the down time on the mix stages were quite often filled with various peoples low budget projects. Fantasy always had a number of no paying projects floating around. A good sound editor working freelance probably only works 50% of the year. They want to keep their skills tuned so you will often find them doing a bit of time on some project as a favor.
So with the right project and the right leadership you can get a lot more than you pay (cash) for.
But it also requires the right market. You need to be where there are a lot of professionals and at a time when they are working enough that they can take on something that isn't paying decently. So 80's and 90's in the Bay Area was a really good time and place. After 2000 it was a bit harder with industry down turns and such. Not sure what it is right now but three years ago you could still get someone decent for way under rate work, with the right project.
And I have a few time worked for absolute scums. Usually though those were gigs I took because they payed decently. Actually I can't think of any no/low gigs I have quit on where I have walk away from a few low/mid gigs that were run by crooks and scum. There have been some "challenging" big budget films, but if they are throwing money at everybody a lot can be put up with.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
;~)
I just find it interesting that we sound folks complain a lot about being taken for granted and nobody thinking about sound and here was a guy who, if I read the post correctly, had budgeted for sound and comes here and a bunch of those same sound guys basically tell him to F&^% off.
I know why I should get paid and I know what I bill folks with a budget, but why should I get a big multiple of what his other crew is getting?
That to me feeds right into the "I'm going to go do it my self because sound people are a pain" attitude that is all too prevalent.
If a director has blown his wad on toys for himself and the DP to play with and are now broke I have zero sympathy. But on a film that may have a $50K total budget is anyone seriously thinking they are going to shell out $750 a day for me? OF COURSE not.
So then sound folks are left with a decision. Do you tell them to take a hike, lose the opportunity to educate them about the benefits of sound and help them make it part of their budgets in the future when they have some dough. Blowing them off may mean nobody is ever going to get any work out of them. I have worked on a fair number of paying gigs that came out of my helping someone out when they needed it.
So though you were kidding I might possibly have taken the gig.
Not for the money but for the relationship. It would have to be a really good script and I would have to like the person and I would have to be between paying gigs.
Someone who has a budget asks me and I laugh them out the door. If they have a budget and are that low they have little chance of ever willingly paying a real rate and have zero chance of respecting sound.
I just find it interesting that we sound folks complain a lot about being taken for granted and nobody thinking about sound and here was a guy who, if I read the post correctly, had budgeted for sound and comes here and a bunch of those same sound guys basically tell him to F&^% off.
I know why I should get paid and I know what I bill folks with a budget, but why should I get a big multiple of what his other crew is getting?
That to me feeds right into the "I'm going to go do it my self because sound people are a pain" attitude that is all too prevalent.
If a director has blown his wad on toys for himself and the DP to play with and are now broke I have zero sympathy. But on a film that may have a $50K total budget is anyone seriously thinking they are going to shell out $750 a day for me? OF COURSE not.
So then sound folks are left with a decision. Do you tell them to take a hike, lose the opportunity to educate them about the benefits of sound and help them make it part of their budgets in the future when they have some dough. Blowing them off may mean nobody is ever going to get any work out of them. I have worked on a fair number of paying gigs that came out of my helping someone out when they needed it.
So though you were kidding I might possibly have taken the gig.
Not for the money but for the relationship. It would have to be a really good script and I would have to like the person and I would have to be between paying gigs.
Someone who has a budget asks me and I laugh them out the door. If they have a budget and are that low they have little chance of ever willingly paying a real rate and have zero chance of respecting sound.
With the introduction of the latest mixer / recorders and top end radio mics the cost of hiring a soundo has also gone up, which is only natural.....But when having some Xmas drinks with a producer he commented on this exact topic and asked what ever happened to the old style of production (Shure FP33 and a 416 and perhaps one radio mic going straight into a camera). This is all he needs and can't see the the point of being charged for multi track recorders, 6 radio mics, time code etc etc etc.
So keep in mind you maybe over servicing your client with things "you like, but they don't need"
So keep in mind you maybe over servicing your client with things "you like, but they don't need"
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This is often the case across all job functions. On low/no, its usually been a please help us attitude. On mid/lo its been, you agreed to this so I will drive you into the ground as you're getting paid.
TyFord
Well-known member
Ah, down here "no/low" is just as often a way to try to low ball the sound budget after they paid for a 4K camera and prime lenses.
In a way, yes, that's an ignorance of filmmaking, but one I'm not in favor of when I get a call.
Regards,
Ty
Again, it's an open and shut case. This is one of those situations, where it is extremely clear what to do. You have $1500 - this is way too little for a soundpro for 10 days ($150 a day). But it is a LOT of money for a per the OP "I'm on a ultra low budget I posted in no/low/deferred". Are you kidding me? Ultra-low budget - $1500 is a bloody FORTUNE!! For a "ultra-low-budget" I can buy equipment that is quite adequate to the task - remember, 'ultra-low-budget' we are not talking doing scenes with dozens of actors talking at once running around a battle-scene - I can get a brand new adequate mixer-recorder Tascam DR-70D for $300, a shotgun AT-875r for $150 brand new, a hyper Oktava brand new for $250, a boompole, mount, cables, headphones and stuff for another $400 and I'm still only at $1100. Then I take a *motivated* student/friend/spouse/whoever, and I'm quite confident I can take out 2-3 days and train them to do an adequate job as a soundie. Mind you, a pro will always be heads and shoulders better, but let's not kid ourselves, you can train a smart and motivated person in a couple of days to work on a "ultra low budget" production that will produce stellar sound. How do I know - because I did it years ago, when I knew ZERO about production sound work, and with a few minutes instruction at a rental place I did really good sound work on a short booming and mixing. Where an amateur will fall is what happened to me on that production, one day lost to radio pickup on my boom - a pro would know immediately that a cable was bad or a bad connection. That's what you are paying for in a pro - the unexpected, which always happens on any production. But that's how it rolls. You can get lucky and if the people involved know enough - at this point, the radio pickup boom would not faze me - you can manage. Why risk insulting a soundie with $150/day, when you can get the work done and save money to boot? The same applies to other tech stuff like DP - do your own. The only time this rule fails is when you're dealing with actors - a better actor will always, ALWAYS be an improvement, and is the heart and soul of a film. But a production sound pro - while extremely valuable - maxes out very fast. You are not going to get better film sound quality because your sound pro - on an ultra-low budget production - has 20 years experience vs 5 years. There's only that much you can improve sound production - whereas an actor there is almost no limit. Put your money where it's most likely to give you returns: writing and acting. Save that $1500 and save the feelings of the pro. The pro has to make a living from his craft. You wouldn't ask a baker to give away bread for free - that's how they make their living. Don't ask a sound pro to give away their services - it's not fair. And it's stupid - it costs you money you don't have, and it insults the pro to boot - lose/lose proposition. Save the money and do the work yourself - win/win. Come back to the pro when you have a real budget.
Yes, I shouldn't generalise in the sound forum. I know / have seen first hand what people do when it comes to you sound folk.
TyFord
Well-known member
Then I take a *motivated* student/friend/spouse/whoever, and I'm quite confident I can take out 2-3 days and train them to do an adequate job as a soundie. Mind you, a pro will always be heads and shoulders better, but let's not kid ourselves, you can train a smart and motivated person in a couple of days to work on a "ultra low budget" production that will produce stellar sound. How do I know - because I did it years ago, when I knew ZERO about production sound work, and with a few minutes instruction at a rental place I did really good sound work on a short booming and mixing.
Good for you, really! But this is not a normal occurrence. I've seen entry and mid level shooters and editors, when pressed into service as a boom op, just not get it.
"Don't ask a sound pro to give away their services - it's not fair. And it's stupid - it costs you money you don't have, and it insults the pro to boot - lose/lose proposition. Save the money and do the work yourself - win/win. Come back to the pro when you have a real budget."
Thank you!
, but it may not be win/win, depending on how the audio turns out. Lessons will be learned and they are always valuable.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Good for you, really! But this is not a normal occurrence. I've seen entry and mid level shooters and editors, when pressed into service as a boom op, just not get it.
"Don't ask a sound pro to give away their services - it's not fair. And it's stupid - it costs you money you don't have, and it insults the pro to boot - lose/lose proposition. Save the money and do the work yourself - win/win. Come back to the pro when you have a real budget."
Thank you!
, but it may not be win/win, depending on how the audio turns out. Lessons will be learned and they are always valuable.Regards,
Ty Ford