Hey, like I said - a pro will always be "head and shoulders better", but we're talking undemanding "ultra-low budget" stuff, and "adequate". For demanding stuff, wireless mics and so on, of course, a pro only. For very simple stuff a pro brings one thing to the table - s/he can handle anything that's "unexpected" and can trouble shoot, which an amateur can't - and trouble almost always is just around the corner on any production... so as an amateur, you must get lucky for your simple stuff to go smoothly. Not putting down the value of a pro at all - but if you have no budget, my plan is better than nothing, and better than insulting a pro with $150/day.
Budget for sound guy?
- Thread starter artistiam2
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j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
It is sort of wyrd. In the 'photography' world one sees any number number of 'self inflated' camera operators giving themselves 'DoP' or 'Cinematographer' designations, just because they happen to own a camera, and perhaps a mid to upper mid camera...
I don't think I've see similar in the sound side of things.
But... then again, I've almost never entertained trying to hire a sound person for my nolo budget projects... I realize there may be no benefit to the 'pro' by working on my projects, and I absolutely hate 'sales'... especially giving the impression that my projects are 'going to the Oscars'... or Sundance... or whatever... I do claim that my goals for a project are fests and being 'good'... but I dislike inflating the goals to such levels.
In the last few projects I've participated in with a group I've been a member of, I've done the sound work, for better or worse... there were problems, and I did 'learn' on these projects. I don't think they had the draw for getting a 'pro' involved, and definitely not the budget, so my sound work did not take bread from the mouth of a professional.
If someone had a budget of 10K for a 30 second 'commercial involving some sort of corn chips'... I probably would have strongly suggested hiring a sound professional, and while we are at it... a camera person with 'better' equipment... and how about a 'real studio' and a 'real built set'... but there was no such budget... I think the budget was enough for pizza after the shoots.
There are also conditions that a 'pro' may not like in the least, and would 'increase' the fee, or frustration, and hence limit the inclination for participation. For example, one location the group shot at was a hotel with a stream of canned background music... because we were at the location 'gratis'... the staff didn't feel a need to cut the background music. A 'pro' would have had to 'work' on filtering this out... or been very frustrated that the set was not 'quiet'... because the person whose project this was was not 'paying' me to make perfect sound, the goal was 'as good as possible' give the situation.
Exactly. The cost of the pro is not just their fee and expenses. It's all the other ancillary costs that a pro - naturally and understandably - expects. The problem is that a no-budget production simply doesn't have the funds. I'm not talking about productions that can afford a sound pro but are just cheapskates - it's productions that simply don't have the money, period. If your whole budget for sound is $1500 for 10 days, save your money - you are not getting a pro for that amount.
In the last few projects I've participated in with a group I've been a member of, I've done the sound work, for better or worse... there were problems, and I did 'learn' on these projects. I don't think they had the draw for getting a 'pro' involved, and definitely not the budget, so my sound work did not take bread from the mouth of a professional.
Right again. The biggest problem for no budget productions has been that the people involved didn't actually understand the importance of sound. They have bad sound, because they don't know that it's bad sound - that's problem #1. At least for those that at a minimum understand to prioritize sound, that by itself will improve the sound on the project even without hiring an unaffordable pro. Every director, producer and so on down the line should be even more aware of sound than of light/picture. If they did, they'd cover the basics, such as re-writing the script if it's going to have serious sound problems (trying to be Altman on no budget) - they do that routinely when they realize that locations or costumes or whatever are not going to be available - so too here, if a scene calls for simultaneous multiple stepping on each other's lines conversations of people running around in wide shots, well, you re-write the scene, or block it differently, so that you are not asking the impossible of your amateur sound person. Take care in selecting locations to account for sound. Train your sound person in at least the basics. I guarantee that it will result in better sound - not pro level, obviously, but why would you expect pro level sound from a no-budget production... after all, you don't expect pro level DP work, or SFX, or anything else - it's a no-budget production. You play the cards you were dealt.
If all you have is $1500, put it to better use. What's the use of renting a Ferrari, if you don't have the cash to put gas in. Buy a Yugo fully gassed up and take your chances.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I would probably not sue "steller" as a description for someone with three days training, but adequate might be had. And with a bit of luck you are starting with someone who has some interest and maybe even some experience in sound, just not production work.
And as the old dead guy pointed out (indirectly) the bar on no budget films is pretty low.
Judging by some of the posts I guess you would be risking insulting some pro's. I really don't understand that. IF your DP is getting $$$ and you want sound to work for $ OK get insulted but if everyone is at the $ level why get insulted? If it's not for you say no, that isn't hard. I have turned down plenty of projects that I could not afford to do for what they had, no reason to nasty about it.
On most no/low films the production sound is not great. This is obvious because the post sound is pretty nonexistent so whatever flaws are in production shine on through.
While you find a few folks who think about production almost none think about post.
While you can't "fix it in post" you can hide a lot of it.
RE: music in the BG. A pro would have tried to get the director to realise what a problem it would be down the pipe, but you know if the director doesn't care...
It's the editor that will have to deal with it. You can't filter out the music and your job is to get the best dialog you can so that music goes to post.
They can't filter it out either so it's probably ADR time. Beyond the editing nightmare of having the music keep changing with the cut you would need to pay for synchronisation rights for every bit that ended up in the cut.
And as the old dead guy pointed out (indirectly) the bar on no budget films is pretty low.
Judging by some of the posts I guess you would be risking insulting some pro's. I really don't understand that. IF your DP is getting $$$ and you want sound to work for $ OK get insulted but if everyone is at the $ level why get insulted? If it's not for you say no, that isn't hard. I have turned down plenty of projects that I could not afford to do for what they had, no reason to nasty about it.
On most no/low films the production sound is not great. This is obvious because the post sound is pretty nonexistent so whatever flaws are in production shine on through.
While you find a few folks who think about production almost none think about post.
While you can't "fix it in post" you can hide a lot of it.
RE: music in the BG. A pro would have tried to get the director to realise what a problem it would be down the pipe, but you know if the director doesn't care...
It's the editor that will have to deal with it. You can't filter out the music and your job is to get the best dialog you can so that music goes to post.
They can't filter it out either so it's probably ADR time. Beyond the editing nightmare of having the music keep changing with the cut you would need to pay for synchronisation rights for every bit that ended up in the cut.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
I did location scouting, even though the Wife and I had shot weddings in both locations (stills... no audio...), and that was one of the things I asked the direct/writer/producer to get clear with the staff... apparently it didn't work... (I also pointed out that with 'amateur' actors, having long passages of dialog made the problem worse... and of course, after all was said and done the DWP, did concede that I was right on these points...).
I don't think it is a matter of 'don't care' as much as 'I have a location that I wouldn't have otherwise, so, take the opportunity even if there are negative aspects of the situation'.
And... given the many hats... I was the editor that did some amount of 'fixing'... which consisted of cutting the dialog chunks out and the DWP 'added' their own 'music' underneath the dialog. Most of the original background was buried. (I also suggested doing Voice Over narration as a fix... I mean bandaid...)
Makes me want to shoot my own shorts in B&W, hence little worries about the 'color/CRI' of lights... and silent... but I'll probably shoot sound even if I do go for monochrome...
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Well you realize that "silent" films were never silent. There is a reason that at the time they referred the the "new" films as talkies. It's not till a lot later that folks started calling them silent. They had generally in a good theatre everything except dialog. The folks who moved on to do sound for radio and films started out doing live FX for "silent" films.
As long as the dialog is dominant you can often bury what you don't want with careful editing and the addition of BG's and FX. The real problem is when it's noisy AND the dialog is low.
I worked on one that didn't have a visible waveform at a normal zoom. The idiot, excuse me production sound guy..., had recorded a wide scene from about 150 feet with a shotgun mic.
I forgot to add to an earlier post that while $1500 will not offend all pro's calling them "soundies" will. That is assuming you don't refer to yourself as one of those "directies". I think you will also find that calling your cast a bunch of "acties" will be counter productive. Try "Camie" on your DP and see how far you get.
Kind of like in theatre. Want to piss off your crew fast?, refer to them as "techies". If any of them are not irritated you know they are strictly community theatre.
As long as the dialog is dominant you can often bury what you don't want with careful editing and the addition of BG's and FX. The real problem is when it's noisy AND the dialog is low.
I worked on one that didn't have a visible waveform at a normal zoom. The idiot, excuse me production sound guy..., had recorded a wide scene from about 150 feet with a shotgun mic.
I forgot to add to an earlier post that while $1500 will not offend all pro's calling them "soundies" will. That is assuming you don't refer to yourself as one of those "directies". I think you will also find that calling your cast a bunch of "acties" will be counter productive. Try "Camie" on your DP and see how far you get.
Kind of like in theatre. Want to piss off your crew fast?, refer to them as "techies". If any of them are not irritated you know they are strictly community theatre.
As a pro sound editor I should say that you should NEVER try to go cheap when it comes to sound. Sound is 50% of your final product. Sound is something that reveals an amateurish film from the first seconds. Now having said this I do not mean you should not try to find a cheaper studio. But if it is obvious that they are not professionals, you will have a lot of trouble trying to make your film come across as something professionally done.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Well of course... but one has much better ability to control the sound either using Effects or Foley to obtain the 'sound environment', as well as adding in background music as required.
ROCKMORE
Veteran
Give this guy a break. It's not a slap in the face, it's hard cash. This attitude really stinks. If you are too far above this than just don't respond. Remember this offer when you are out of work and can't pay your bills. I'm not too proud to admit I've been there more than once myself and seen many "elite pros" with their noses in the air crash and burn. The bigger they come that harder they fall.
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Agree. It should not be about noses in the air, just about dealing with adequate people who know what they are doing. And it does not mean it costs a bunch.
ROCKMORE
Veteran
My 6 year old is quite skilled editing his own films in Adobe Premiere CS6, writing and importing his subtitled dialogue from Photoshop, and creating in 3dsmax, with little or no help from me and he just started 1st grade. If somebody, even with a lifetime of experience think they can't be replaced by a young talented collage graduate they may be mistaken.
I joined this forum in 2009 because I needed and found a wealth of support, and continue to believe that we are all here to support film makers with or without a budget any way we can.
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