Budget for sound guy?

A

artistiam2

Member
I posted an ad on Mandy for a sound guy. Since I'm on a ultra low budget I posted in no/low/deferred.

I've talked to at least 5 or 6 guys, and everyone that I talked to went on to tell me about how much they paid for their equipment. It's kind of frustrating that I worked extra hours to afford good sound.

My budget was $1,500 for 10 days. Which I think is not a slap in the face (I didn't place an ad that said work with an award winning filmmaker for credit, donuts, and fifty bucks).

So as a last resort(not in a bad way) I purchased Barry Green's sound for TV/Film which was amazing by the way.

Research led to the following equipment (I'm shooting on 7d)
Bought zoom h4n
Bought Oktava mk012 - Indoor
Bought Rode NTG-3 - Outdoor
AudioTechnica xlr inputs
The blimp for wind and that extra stuff.

As back up I'm going with a beachtek in case anything happens to the zoom, I've only heard of minimal problems as far as popping noise with zoom.

I had the juicedlink tried to calibrate it to my camera, and it didn't work (maybe I was doing something wrong. If it wasn't for the calibration that's what I would have got, but I need something to plug in, and go.(understand you have to set things to get it going)

I guess the moral of this story is people tell you to come up with a budget, and I DID. I'm not sure why people would respond to low/no ad on Mandy expecting to get $3k to $5k for an already small budget.

I think with what I had I made the best of it. And took the necessary precautions to get get good audio instead of just plugging an expensive mic into the camera and say OH WE'VE GOT SOUND!

So instead of a budget for an audio guy it looks like I'll be doing audio for all my projects unless it's a big budget.

Besides that I want to know what others audio setup is like? And how did you come to terms on doing your own audio?
 
If you're recording to the zoom, don't forget a slate, and slate each shot.

And you're right, someone with the rig you purchased might well accept a $1500 shoot provided it's in the evenings and they can still work their day job.

I'll speak for myself here:

I'm a location sound recordist. Even though I do this as a moonlighting job, the issue of how much a location sound guy has invested in their gear is an issue. While I'm first in line with the arguement that great gear in non-skilled hands will result in poor results, and moderate gear in the hands of someone with great chops can result in impressive results, there is some essentials that a sound person needs, and there's always competition for work and what's in your bag often determines whether you'll get the job.

So,
mic case holding a couple of industry recognized shotguns, hypers, and few other mics for plant, handheld, etc. $2k+
A couple of channels of wireless (I carry senn G3, which can be snubbed by those who only want Lectro) $1k
A couple of Tram Tr-50s for the wireless $300 (used)
Blimp, shockmount, windjammer (to fit all my shotguns) so I can work in just about any wind condition $700
2 boom poles so I can have one loaded with shotgun, and one loaded with hyper $800.00
Mixer (anything other than Sound Devices is looked down at) SD442, $1800 (used)
Recorder (maybe get by with the fostex) $500
Headphones, cables, snake, connectors, $500
Field bag $200

So, even though you were able to put together a small rig which may get you thru your shoot, location sound people have to be able to satisfy alot of different requirements.

Where you spent about $1,500, most basically equipped location sound people are carrying $7k+ worth of gear than has to be paid for, as well as maintained. Oh, and we'd like to be able to earning a living as well. Although your offer seems reasonable, given a 12 hr day (most full day shoots I go on are more like 14-16hrs), you're talking about basically minimum wage.

If someone contacted you for the job and said their gear consisted of the list you purchased, and they were new to location sound recording, would you have hired them?

I think it's really, really great that you set aside some funds for sound. Perhaps it would have worked out better for you research what the going rate was for sound guys before setting your budget.

$100 a day is really the low, low end of the scale for anyone with gear and skills. I pick up a few like that here and there. But even as a moonlighter, I don't know that I'd commit to 10 evenings at that rate, let alone, 10 days, and then not be available for more lucrative assignments.

How did you determine that $1500 for 10 days was a reasonable rate?
 
Assuming a 10 hour day, that's $15/hour. That's got to cover transportation, insurance, wear and tear on gear, consumables, etc, etc.

I don't know where you are, but union day rates here in BC right now are something like $350-$400 for a production mixer, $300-$350 for a boom op. Obviously you're not doing a union shoot, but that gives a rough idea of some numbers.

Gear list is often used as a very rough way to determine if a mixer knows what they're doing.
 
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My 'indoor' mic set me back more than your entire gear package cost.

$1500 for 10 days = $150/day=$15/hour (industry norm is the day rate is for up to a 10-hour day)

Are you personally willing to invest thousands of dollars in gear so you can work for a fraction over minimum wage?

Oh, and ask him what gear he has in his kit, ring up a rental house, and find out what that package would cost you to rent for 10 days. Why should you expect your sound person to charge you less than that for the same gear? It's cost HIM at least the same as it cost the rental house to buy it. And just like the rental house, he has to cover wear and tear as well as the purchase price. Why should you expect him to charge ONLY for the gear and not a living wage for his time as well?

Remember, when you hire someone, you may be on the project for the glory of it all but he's more likely to be interested in working on your project so he can pay the rent, feed his family, make the next car payment, cover his insurance, and send his kids to school. For you it may be a labour of love or looking for your Big Break but for him it's a business like any other and he must make a profit in order to survive. On top of that he has to purchase the gear, pay for its maintainance, and set aside money for upgrades - the gear package is an on-going expense, not a one-time deal. For an entry-level technician, a more reasonable rate would be somewhere in the $250 a day range, plus fair-market value rental of his equipment, plus expendables, plus mileage and other expenses if the shoot requires travel out of his immediate local area. Jordan's numbers would be reasonable to offer someone who's been in the biz for a while and who is working at it full-time.

Audio done properly requires full attention as the camera rolls. That means a pair of eyes devoted exclusively to sound, a pair of hands devoted exclusively to sound, a pair of ears devoted exclusively to sound, and a skilled brain working full-time to coordinate between them. Camera also requires full attention when its rolling so a minimum crew size to do the job right is two, a camera person and a sound person, except under special circumstances. When you hire a sound person you are not just hiring a gear package - you are hiring someone who will give his total focus to getting you the best sound possible, though the fee you pay does include the cost of the gear package he provides in order to accomplish that. He doesn't just bring a mic and plug it in, he knows where to put the thing. If you're working doco style he will boom the mic and swing the boom with the scene. He doesn't just bring a Jucedlink for you to set and forget, he brings a proper mixer and rides gain to get the best recording one can get. He knows when a radio will be better than the boom, he provides it in his kit, and rigs it to best advantage. In short, you're not just hiring his gear, you're hiring his expertise in using his gear.
 
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I think some of you are taking what I said the wrong way I'll break it down so you'll see my point. You don't have to agree but HEAR where I'm coming from, also we'll use my real numbers.

My shooting days consisted of 8 hours a day maxed for 10 days.

$18.75 an hour times 8 hours = $150 a day - Those are the real numbers. Mandy.com states that a fully paid job is at least minimum wage. I'm paying almost three times that amount minus a few bucks.

I POSTED in lo = less than minimum wage
No = Work with an award winning filmmaker for free.
Deferred = Get me great sound, then I'll think about whether or not I want to pay you and it will be worth wild. Example - http://www.mandy.com/1/jobs3.cfm?v=40205391

I'm NOT saying that a professional sound recordists isn't worth $250 or $300 a day or more. I'm SAYING WHY WOULD YOU RESPOND TO AN ADD IN WHICH YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S A CHANCE THAT YOU MAY NOT GET PAID WHAT THE "INDUSTRY" THINKS YOU'RE WORTH.

Now answer this everyone that has responded or will respond to this post will you ever consider (with the gear that you have) answering an ad in low/No/Def and expect to get paid the "Industry rate"? If the answer is no you will not, then I think you get where I'm coming from.

My point is don't respond to an ad that says lo/no/def and say then try to say I'm worth more then that.

If someone contacted you for the job and said their gear consisted of the list you purchased, and they were new to location sound recording, would you have hired them?

Answer: I would need to see your reel. Like most all of you are saying it's not the gear it's who's operating it the gear. So if they did respond and the sound was good, YES! I would hire them. If the sound was bad then you know the answer.
With all that being said I hope you understand where I'm coming from I did not ask for someone to respond who had $30,000 dollars worth of equipment that's why I posted where I posted I would of been happy for someone with much less equipment, but knew how to operate it and get my good sound so the project isn't a waste.

Have a great day, I'm off to watching Barry's Cd again two weeks before the shoot I'll do all the research so I'm not stuck with bad audio! CheerS!
 
I will often respond to adds which have listed a price and explain why their rate is too low for me. It sounds like this is something many sound people do as proved by the reponses you received to your ad.

Also, it seems that your request was unrealistic in that you ended up having you do it yourself. You were unable to find someone who would work for your rates.

Interestly, I and many location sound people I know do not have "reels" of their work. There is so much that happens to the recording between the time it is recorded on set, and the final result in the movie it is very hard to tell what was recorded on location, what was heavily modified in post (good or bad), and what was ADRed.

A much better place to get an idea of what a location sound person can do is talk to other directors or producers and the person who really hears to raw work of the location sound recordist, the editor. One of my first questions when soliciting a job is "who is your editor and can I talk to him/her?"

Last thing. I don't know where you are but I have NEVER been on a day shoot for a film that only lasted 8 hours. Heck, most of my evening shoots go over 8 hours.

I don't think anyone is trying to beat you up at least I know I'm not.

I'm glad it all worked out for you and I look forward to seeing (and hearing) the results.
 
artistiam2 said:
I'm not sure why people would respond to low/no ad on Mandy expecting to get $3k to $5k for an already small budget.
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I'm going to stay away from the obvious comments about the $150 a day deal.

I will comment on the above quote though.
I don't personally use the craigs list style jobs but I'll give you one quick
example why someone might contact you even when you stated a particular rate.

Most producers out there will do whatever they possibly can to get
the cheapest labor possible. It's just in peoples blood to want to pay less than they are "actually" willing to pay.
These people contacting you probably have the idea that you can FIND the extra money if you REALLY end up struggling to find someone.

The example I can give you is about a year ago I got a call to do a few days on a documentary. I talked to the producer from out of town but the director
is just about the top of the A-list doc directors out there.
She wanted me for about 60% of my day rate. I refused and within
60 seconds of explaining why I needed my reg day rate they jumped up to it.
In her case she made the mistake of dropping the directors name thinking
I would kill for the chance. Of course in my case I instantly realized they weren't a struggling doc crew and definitely had the money.

People seeing your ad could believe you're willing to come up a bit if
they talk to you.

Did it really ruin your day that much having a few extra mixers contact you
when you posted on a public forum?
 
artistiam2 said:
I...
If someone contacted you for the job and said their gear consisted of the list you purchased, and they were new to location sound recording, would you have hired them?

Answer: I would need to see your reel. Like most all of you are saying it's not the gear it's who's operating it the gear. So if they did respond and the sound was good, YES! I would hire them. ..CheerS!
Click to expand...

Location sound mixers, even the Hollywood regulars, virtaually will never have a reel. What you might hear on a reel, should one exist, has more to do with what happened in sound post than it does location recording. Yet another example of how sound is different from camera.
 
This dvd Sound for Film & television really helps out, the simplest things that I never knew about.

This is my 2nd time watching it. Can't wait to test out the mk012. I'll post the results of the testing.

Cheers good night and don't drink and drive.

I'm going to throw back a cold one.
 
First off as others have said no one in sound has a real reel. If you do post for a lot of ad's you need one but it's BS. I have a "reel" but it's for ads and micro budget filmmakers. I've worked on some decent sized shows and nobody with a budget over $1mill has ever asked for a reel. Even sound people would have a hard time telling who did what on most projects, and nobody would claim to be able to tell how good the recordist is from the mixed film. Maybe on no-budget films you would hear some really bad production sound but then I would can the guy for being stupid enough to show it to me, not because I knew he was a bad mixer. Asking for a reel from a film sound person is a bit like asking foe a CD of your DP's best work.

As to rates. I think you definition of low is more like NO. The rate in CA is $650/ day + equipment (so it could end up double). Docs in the Bay Area are more in the $450 - $650/ day including equipment. "Low" budget films are usually in the same ballpark as docs.

You have put together a decent one man band kit but that would not fly with most producers (and your kit still doesn't have the one crucial ingredient, the mixer).

That said I know people who have worked for your rate, I did once (but it was on a two day short for a friend so...). You need to understand that your still way below what a sound person NEEDS just to stay afloat. $1500 for two weeks is, well that makes it really too low to live on in most places. If it was a shorter time it's not so bad but 10 days means they might have to say no to something. So knowing they are doing you a favor to some extent YOU have to sell them on why they should do you this favor. It can be done. It's done all the time. There isn't a professional who hasn't worked for free or WAY below rate because they wanted to help someone out. As a freelance you have to figure your only going to be employed about 50% of the time and your caring your own "benefits", so minimum wage is a lot higher than an ongoing job with benefits.

I would also say that a "basic" kit for a professional production mixer runs closer to $50K than the figure mentioned above. That is also in the range for post audio, though it's come down a bit since the demise of tape.

And as long as we are on this subject, did you budget anything for post sound?
 
I just had $300 turned down to run sound for a piddley greenscreen interview. I know it's low, but it ain't that low.

I mean...I just got a job doing videos for a small marketing company. The guy who hired me covers graphic design and web design, I cover the video production. Budgets are about $1500+ and I can hire crew or not as I choose. I can run my mics right into the camera for the little interviews we do. I'm sure that's peanuts to most of you, but it's looking like a plum gig so far to me.

I have another gig where I go and shoot second camera of a bible study group for $175 for two hours. It's a show on a TV channel that a friend of mine produces, we met when I sold him some camera kit. It's a 70 minute drive.

I'm still doing both gigs because I value the relationship with my friend. Also just because I'm not getting paid so well I won't stoop down to pick up a dollar, you know what I mean?
 
Surely the comparison with any minimum wage payment misses out on something important. You are searching for someone to take charge of a vital area. This person has to be trusted to work independently, and has real responsibility. Even if they come with no equipment, you are paying a skilled person to do the job. If you get a minimum wage person who regularly gets paid this rate, they need supervising and have no responsibility. You don't in my area of work, get the sound designer, you get the flight case pusher who may well not even read the labels on the boxes. That said, I have from time to time gone out for silly money, for projects I have a genuine interest in, but it is my choice. However, when I'm on these jobs, I always have a problem with 'worth' and very often feel damn unappreciated.
 
So if you wanted to get your car fixed or some dentistry work done or maybe need your accounts done would you go out and buy some tools or software and then post an advert asking for a mechanic, dentist or accountant to come and sort those out for you too?

Pop down to your local burger place and ask if any of the workers there will do it for you as they will appreciate the pay rise!

I too have done work for low pay but as pure enjoyment so if you are lucky you may find someone but you will more than likely get a dreamer who doesn't turn up at a critical time as they got offered a more secure job serving at their local burger outlet.
 
artistiam2 said:
I posted an ad on Mandy for a sound guy. Since I'm on a ultra low budget I posted in no/low/deferred.

I've talked to at least 5 or 6 guys, and everyone that I talked to went on to tell me about how much they paid for their equipment. It's kind of frustrating that I worked extra hours to afford good sound.

My budget was $1,500 for 10 days. Which I think is not a slap in the face (I didn't place an ad that said work with an award winning filmmaker for credit, donuts, and fifty bucks).
Click to expand...

The going rate in the UK for a sound recordist is about the equivalent to $400 - $500 a day - so $150 a day is pretty low, especially if the guy has a large investment in equipment.

Though your figure is not unreasonable for a recently graduated student wanting experience.



artistiam2 said:
I want to know what others audio setup is like? And how did you come to terms on doing your own audio?
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My own kit is valued at about $100,000 at replacement value.
 
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I understand. I'll probably get pilloried for this but I have been in your shoes, so here goes. The difference is between a pro (getting paid) project and DIY.

I have a sound kit with a couple of medium quality mics with accessories, 3 X G3s, Countryman lavs, and a mixer. I use my kit on no/lo projects and one man band interviews, etc. I get pretty good sound. If I'm not moving the camera I set the boom on a C-stand and lav, set the mix and go.

I always prefer a professional sound recordist with professional gear. I'm sure you would too for all the reasons given.

Who's producing? If it's you, for your short film or web series project, a project on which you will not make a dime but will get started telling stories, then you're in good shape with your kit, although I'd suggest a mixer as an addition. I'm sure you're surrounded by other people, actors working for meals and reel, friends who will help you schlep stuff. If it's a DIY labor of love then keep going. Be prepared to ADR and spend a lot of time with your dialog mix. It's cool. It will be worth it.

Find the musician in your community of friends, someone who may be able to watch levels, and pay them the $150 a day. If you're operating, you're going to wear cans to make sure you're getting something useful. If you're shooting on weekends and it won't cost anyone money to be there, great. One thing, it's noisier on weekends (lawn mowers mostly ;)) You'll need a boom op. Train and practice with them. Maybe shoot your Kickstarter video with them to teach them the ropes.

If you're not producing and you're getting paid to shoot this project then it's a different ballgame. Hire the pro. Add the pro to your budget and your producer will gladly pay and you will have peace of mind.

If you are a garage band, you're a garage band. Set up your stuff, as good as you have and play. If you want to hire pros then you need the budget. The disparity in budget is always large. For a full crew short you can easily be looking at $40K. If that's not your budget then you're DIY. No shame. Knock 'em dead.
 
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Anyone can do audio, it doesn't involve much skill. I usually hire a house painter for a boom op, they can hold a pole all day right?

Uh huh.

Grant
 
John Willett said:
My own kit is values at about $100,000 at replacement value.
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And that is VERY common. Sound gear costs a lot of money. I've sold complete sound packages for close to $200K. Sound people invest a LOT in their gear.

I'll try and break this down:

-Like everyone else said, your rate is way too low if you want someone who knows what they are doing.
-Your rate didn't even include gear rental, which sound people will find insulting.
-You can buy the gear yourself. You can read books. But will you really know what you are doing?
-You might be able to find a college student to do this, but no audio professional will do it, unless you have a good friend that happens to be one that wants to do you a favor (we've all done favors for friends).
-Budgeting is a big part of film making. Knowing rates before making lowball offers will make you look better.
-Don't ask for demo reels. That shows you don't know the process of sound at all. You don't need to be an audio expert, but even directors and producers who know how a movie is made know that a demo reel for production sound is pretty much useless. You should instead ask for a list of credits and references.

Too many times I see people wanting to make "the next big thing" with low end gear and no budget. I can think of two films that were successful doing that, and even then, they were stylized that way on purpose (blair witch, paranormal activity).

Now, I'm not saying don't make movies, but with an audio budget like that..well that tells me the whole thing is ultra low budget... expect your project to be more of a learning experience than trying to make something to impress people.
 
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