C100: BMC vs C100 vs Scarlet

[Kholi]

please don't keep it to yourself, you're welcome to pm, fb, or email me a link if you can't post it on the thread.
I want to be a bmc believer but I have become disillusioned by what I saw posted on vimeo.


in order alexa, canon , sony

I can't share the Alexa and Blackmagic tests, but we're supposed to do our own as soon as I have time. I probably will not share those with the public, just a few. Most of this stuff I keep private just because of the responses on the internet, which go either way.

Likely, you are justified by what you're seeing on Vimeo. Couldn't really say that I disagree, either and if I hadn't been working with the camera for a few months I would probably agree... John's stuff (where skin is concerned) has been the only tell that SOMETHING is there, but it's not being accessed by the majority.

I think, in regards to these three cameras in a comparison, when shot properly Blackmagic would take home color first and foremost, in every single way. Personally, I am just not a fan of Sony no matter how hard I try, but the F35 just doesn't play like the Sony I know. Especially not in regards to color and motion. I'm currently handling footage from a pair of F35s and one Blackmagic, all shooting simultaneously as I type, and you would be hard pressed to pick one from the other in that regard.

But, again, that's a subjective thing.

Heres my exposure plan for the BMC, In an initial test I'll shoot a grey card and a white card. Gradually increase light on the white card until it just clips the sensor, and then see what IRE the grey card falls and repeat for ISO range. Calibrate my meter and go based of that. But someone can save me the trouble if they know where what IRE levels middle grey is commonly exposed at, also how many stops up from middle grey is clipping.

I gotta work with middle grey, my contrast ratios are always in relation to middle grey, I don't want to gauge exposure just based on clipping.

The issue is, right now, we haven't figured it out yet. But, it's supposedly around the same as Alexa, which is 36~40? 38? I would have to go and sift through the threads again where we had this discussion. Be safe, though, it's around 38 so put it at 38 and go from there.

I understand your apprehension to doing things this way... but literally put the Zebras at 100 percent, then just don't clip anything in broad daylight. After that, clip something, but don't clip skin at all. Just make that one or two of your tests.

I think as a colorist you may be a smidge on the surprised side when you see the results. It's something that I cannot say works well with RED or many other cameras... trying to get true color back in those circumstances is usually a nightmare. Well, anyway, looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[RZE]

I was hoping to have some comparisons up this weekend but BorrowLenses postponed my BMC rental til Tuesday! They were cool about it though, I wish I hadn't rented ssds elsewhere.

 

[starcentral]

Heres my exposure plan for the BMC, In an initial test I'll shoot a grey card and a white card. Gradually increase light on the white card until it just clips the sensor, and then see what IRE the grey card falls and repeat for ISO range. Calibrate my meter and go based of that. But someone can save me the trouble if they know where what IRE levels middle grey is commonly exposed at, also how many stops up from middle grey is clipping.

I gotta work with middle grey, my contrast ratios are always in relation to middle grey, I don't want to gauge exposure just based on clipping.

RZE, what do you expect such as test to really indicate? What you are suggesting will really only tell you how much dynamic range you have above middle grey for each camera.. also as you increase light on a white card how will you know when it clips on a sensor?

 

[RZE]

RZE, what do you expect such as test to really indicate? What you are suggesting will really only tell you how much dynamic range you have above middle grey for each camera.. also as you increase light on a white card how will you know when it clips on a sensor?

That test is not part of any comparison, its just to find out how to expose properly on the BMC since that is still a little bit of a mystery. The sensor clipping is indicated by 100% zebras on the BMC at any ISO, other ways to find out is when the waveform readings flatline for baked codecs.


I've thought about tests and this is what I want to do:

1. A plain color chart test to see how color is mapped on each cam
2. Underexposed test with a 2-3 stops under key, my money is on RED.
3. Overexposed test with 2-3 stops up on the key, my money is on BMC
4. Normal exposure test to see if BMC or RED is that much better than c100.

I have no intention of matching all parameters on all cams, I rather use the optimized setting for each and compare the results. My conclusions will only consist of which shooting conditions I believe warrant which camera.

 

[traviswears]

And... I don't think it's a good idea to shoot the cameras the same, or make them use the same settings.

Quite the opposite: use whatever settings you think make each camera shine. It's about the image, not the setting. The two constants are the scene and the lens.

+1

 

[starcentral]

And... I don't think it's a good idea to shoot the cameras the same, or make them use the same settings.

Quite the opposite: use whatever settings you think make each camera shine. It's about the image, not the setting. The two constants are the scene and the lens.

+1

Exactly what settings on the raw cameras would you be using to influence the image since it is raw? Same with log?

There are indeed many tests that can be performed on cameras but if you're using a raw camera or the log format then presumabley you will be achieving most of the final look in your final grade. For that reason the lattitude test such as the one I suggested will show you which cameras and their respective settings will allow you to push the images in post before introducing noise, artifacts, posterization, etc.. all of course in effort to get the image from each camera to "shine". But the point is that will happen in post not in-camera.

 

[AndreeOnline]

Exactly what settings on the raw cameras would you be using to influence the image since it is raw?

Nobody cares. And they shouldn't.

Set them as you like. Do whatever post work you like. Deliver a 1080p clip for us to look at.

That clip, after all work has been done is ALL that matters. For 1080p delivery.

If your hires, raw camera allows for great flexibility and lots of options: great—use them. But please be open about what extent of post work you did and how much time it took to setup a shot. Everything comes together at the end: price of camera, workflow and end result.

I very much want to see end results, at 1080p, from any and all high end cameras and I want to compare that to my C100.

 

[RZE]

Nobody cares. And they shouldn't.

Set them as you like. Do whatever post work you like. Deliver a 1080p clip for us to look at.

That clip, after all work has been done is ALL that matters. For 1080p delivery.

If your hires, raw camera allows for great flexibility and lots of options: great—use them. But please be open about what extent of post work you did and how much time it took to setup a shot. Everything comes together at the end: price of camera, workflow and end result.

I very much want to see end results, at 1080p, from any and all high end cameras and I want to compare that to my C100.

The test got delayed because borrowlenses' fedex delivery of the bmc got lost, they refunded me and gave me a 50% off coupon towards my next rental and said they would call me when they get updates.

 

[starcentral]

That test is not part of any comparison, its just to find out how to expose properly on the BMC since that is still a little bit of a mystery. The sensor clipping is indicated by 100% zebras on the BMC at any ISO, other ways to find out is when the waveform readings flatline for baked codecs.

I've thought about tests and this is what I want to do:

1. A plain color chart test to see how color is mapped on each cam
2. Underexposed test with a 2-3 stops under key, my money is on RED.
3. Overexposed test with 2-3 stops up on the key, my money is on BMC
4. Normal exposure test to see if BMC or RED is that much better than c100.

I have no intention of matching all parameters on all cams, I rather use the optimized setting for each and compare the results. My conclusions will only consist of which shooting conditions I believe warrant which camera.

Sounds like a good plan and I will be looking forward to your results - and I'm glad to see you will test the lattitude of the cameras as I had suggested, since your lattitude in post is the most critical aspect in the chain for achieving a final look and completed grade.

 

[L1N3ARX]

So, how did the test turn out?

 

[RZE]

So, how did the test turn out?

Rental house canceled my BMC order because of shipping problems, I'm rescheduled for a rental next weekend. I'm DPing an short on scarlet and c100 this weekend, will have some interim stuff to show soon

 

[RZE]

For those who may care, I shot a short on Scarlet with the Canon CN-E 30-105mm and the image was fantastic, I used the c100 as bcam with some zeiss ZEs for some POV shots and though the images will cut, even the prores off the scarlet hdsdi, not even the 4k raw, looked way better than the c100, most likely it was the lens, but no pl mount option is rough. I'm picking up the black magic on thursday will be testing all weekend.

 

[Kholi]

For those who may care, I shot a short on Scarlet with the Canon CN-E 30-105mm and the image was fantastic, I used the c100 as bcam with some zeiss ZEs for some POV shots and though the images will cut, even the prores off the scarlet hdsdi, not even the 4k raw, looked way better than the c100, most likely it was the lens, but no pl mount option is rough. I'm picking up the black magic on thursday will be testing all weekend.

I've never used the CN-E's, has anyone really been able to confirm that the primes are rehoused Ls? But, yeah, I would guess there's a major difference with that Zoom and then the ZE's.

No PL mount option right now on Blackmagic is equally rough. =[ I've been waiting for MFT mount, hoping soon... having to use EF glass on jobs that should and would be shooting with much better is ssssaaadddd.

 

[RZE]

I've never used the CN-E's, has anyone really been able to confirm that the primes are rehoused Ls? But, yeah, I would guess there's a major difference with that Zoom and then the ZE's.

No PL mount option right now on Blackmagic is equally rough. =[ I've been waiting for MFT mount, hoping soon... having to use EF glass on jobs that should and would be shooting with much better is ssssaaadddd.

It was night and day, I love that zoom, its warms the skintones perfectly, I haven't gotten as good skintones out of the scarlet right out of the camera on other lenses and it rents in sf for less than a dp optimo with a larger zoom range.

I can tell you that the focus fall off is far superior on the CN-E primes than the l series, I hate how photo glass separates focus and out of focus so abruptly, its a pain in the ass. But the CN-E primes have more of a gradation giving racks focuses more of natural play. Focus marks are spot on, and the focus rings are smoother than cp.2s As for the actual optics, I've never tested them side by side, but have my doubts that l series could produce the same motion images.

The EF black magic doesn't really make sense to me, I guess its due to the price bracket its in, but to do that camera justice, a proper lens will be required.

 

[David W. Jones]

Seen this?

http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail01.asp?productID=1259&Cat=11

 

[Kholi]

It was night and day, I love that zoom, its warms the skintones perfectly, I haven't gotten as good skintones out of the scarlet right out of the camera on other lenses and it rents in sf for less than a dp optimo with a larger zoom range.

I can tell you that the focus fall off is far superior on the CN-E primes than the l series, I hate how photo glass separates focus and out of focus so abruptly, its a pain in the ass. But the CN-E primes have more of a gradation giving racks focuses more of natural play. Focus marks are spot on, and the focus rings are smoother than cp.2s As for the actual optics, I've never tested them side by side, but have my doubts that l series could produce the same motion images.

The EF black magic doesn't really make sense to me, I guess its due to the price bracket its in, but to do that camera justice, a proper lens will be required.

I need to try the Canon Cinema lenses, then. Sounds like they're really great, and I am not a huge fan of Canon glass. Will be lookin' for some of those.

Recently, shooting with the camera on a job (rental cam) I came to appreciate the IS function more than I have in the past. 200 end on that sized sensor is crazy for handheld work, but the IS really REALLY helped out a beauty shot. I went on to try the 35mm F2 IS USM as well and really enjoyed the handheld application, it's a different look altogether IMO but still looks great.

So, I do agree that the EF was a strange way to start, but if you're using Canon glass and/or IS, it's actually a really great application.

David -- that lens adapter doesn't allow adaptation of every PL lens.

 

[AndreeOnline]

has anyone really been able to confirm that the primes are rehoused Ls?

They are not. Unfortunately I don't have a first hand source, but I remember reading some credible information about a Canon rep going to some length describing that Cinema lenses use hand polished glass and whatnot. That may of may not be the case, but just by looking at the available tests comparing cinema and L directly to each other, you see clear differences.

If the difference is enough to warrant the price is up to the user. A casual viewer would not be able to tell the apart just by looking, so you need to factor in build quality and build features as well.

 

[RZE]

Seen this?

http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail01.asp?productID=1259&Cat=11

Until there is at least some copy describing how it works, testimonials from a credible source, or a video demonstration, I have to assume that this will damage my camera

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Until there is at least some copy describing how it works, testimonials from a credible source, or a video demonstration, I have to assume that this will damage my camera

That's a little naive.

Visual Products is a long-standing vendor of all things lenses and have been making lens adapters for cinema forever.

 

[David W. Jones]

Until there is at least some copy describing how it works, testimonials from a credible source, or a video demonstration, I have to assume that this will damage my camera

From what I see in the picture, it is simply a PL mount for the new Canon cine zoom lenses. One would remove the existing EF mount and replace with this new PL mount, allowing one to use these new Canon lenses on professional cameras with a positive lock lens mounting system.