I'm picking up a bmc for rental on Friday in SF, I'll be testing it against my scarlet and c100 to see what is hype and what is for real. If you have REASONABLE test requests speak now and not after I return the camera. Also if there is anybody who is SF and willing to help out and or has good ef glass and or ssds and or c300, let me know. I only have one ssd and my glass is in vegas.
C100: BMC vs C100 vs Scarlet
- Thread starter RZE
- Start date
starcentral
Veteran
one good test is exposing a high contrast scene -2, -1, 0, +1, +2 stops then adjusting in post to same base level exposure level.
it would be interesting to see the raw cameras against the c100 in both standard and LOG mode.
it would be interesting to see the raw cameras against the c100 in both standard and LOG mode.
definitely reasonable, I'm gonna need some assistance for the BMC though, where is middle grey supposed to be for the correct allocation of dynamic range, I know how to set it on the other cameras,
ah, just dont compare whats the difference between 12bit and 8bit, such as bring back detail from overexposed areas, Its meaningless since C100 is only 8 bit which is the same as 5D. I think it is better to compare the detail, corner to corner, it would be interesting if they are on the same level (1080p)
Was this gloating or help? feel free to prevent potential borking by providing information in regards to exposure methods on the BMC, its a short rental, I don't own one.
No, I don't own one yet either. This isn't aimed at you, but doing tests without understanding a tool is kind of backward, what exactly would you be testing for? If the camera can fix itself when not used properly?
There's a lot of info on the other forum about how to expose/work with the camera. But, of course at the end of the day it's your test!
here how you expose for a blackmagic
ISO does not matter on RAW.
set display to video mode
set recording to raw 2.5k
set zebra to 100%
expose your white point to 100% zebra
it doesnt matter if the display shows overexposed parts. (in RAW you can lower the iso to lower exposure on the display but not on the recorded data)
if it doesnt get in the zebra, its recoverable.
heres a sample so you have an idea how it works http://youtu.be/Zp8-wQFeP7I
ISO does not matter on RAW.
set display to video mode
set recording to raw 2.5k
set zebra to 100%
expose your white point to 100% zebra
it doesnt matter if the display shows overexposed parts. (in RAW you can lower the iso to lower exposure on the display but not on the recorded data)
if it doesnt get in the zebra, its recoverable.
no, bmc doesnt work that way. BMC works by maximizing the information the data it gets per shot. it will always be corrected in post. ALWAYS.
heres a sample so you have an idea how it works http://youtu.be/Zp8-wQFeP7I
http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4703
And just about everything dcloud said.
I forgot he got his camera. xD
And just about everything dcloud said.
I forgot he got his camera. xD
Finnegan
Well-known member
I'm with Kholi here -- when you test a camera, you're designing a very specific set of controlled tasks aimed at yielding very specific information about the camera. You change one variable at a time across the spectrum of its usability and make your conclusions before you change anything else. Setting up three cameras next to each other to roll and looking at the footage in post isn't much of a test, and certainly doesn't tell you anything about the cameras.
Kholi's point is that the cameras all have very different exposure methods, so if you're designing a test that includes all three cameras you need to make sure your methodology isn't favoring one or the other's specific strengths or weaknesses. That's precisely Zacuto's Great Camera Shootout required like eight ASC cinematographers and 25 technicians and DITs...it was a test between like 15 different cameras.
Kholi's point is that the cameras all have very different exposure methods, so if you're designing a test that includes all three cameras you need to make sure your methodology isn't favoring one or the other's specific strengths or weaknesses. That's precisely Zacuto's Great Camera Shootout required like eight ASC cinematographers and 25 technicians and DITs...it was a test between like 15 different cameras.
This is how it should've been put. Honestly, I could've made that point a lot better and my post was not a good one. Thanks Finnegan.
Sorry about that, RZE. I blame call times, but no excuse.
Here is a nice long thread from a frustrated Blackmagic owner: My Frustrations with BMCC so far. You should also brace yourselves for a change
And here is where the steep learning curve lead him so far: Well, I'm getting a bit...
What dcloud said and these few threads offer should tell you what you need to know.
maranfilms
Veteran
How can they be on the same level? Their two totally different tools, sensor size, bit rate, codec or lack there of, and just about every other aspect of each cam is vastly different. It just seems pointless to me to do a test without having glass, time, and experience with the tool. I would rather see you go out with the camera and shoot some cool stuff around San fran, get to know it, and post up something enjoyable to watch. I guess i'm just burnt out on camera tests, I mean we all know each and everyone of those cams are able to produce stunning footage in the right hands. We have all seen pretty much what each one is capable of. But hey, if you feel like doing tests, thats your perogative. I just want to see real world coverage with some nice glass.
thats why I said compare the details, pixel by pixel, corner to corner, dont compare the dynamic range since its 12 bit vs 8 bit which is meaningless !
and do not compare color sampling, do not grade them heavily since c100 is just 420 while BMCC and scarlet are basically raw (scarlet is 16bit in dynamic range, BMCC is 12, c100 is just 8)
thats why their file sizes are so freaking big that only SSD can handle.
get them at the same exposure level, see which image quality is suprior than the other, make sure set scarlet at 1080p tho, dont downscale scarlet from 4k.
this is unfair test from its very begining, as Scarlet costs nearly 10K for just the brain, 3 times more than BMCC brain. and it costs 20K for scarlet to work, 6k for BMCC to work, while C100 works out of box.
they are built for different purpose, so please try to setup a scene that is fair for all of them, like a interview head shot, and compare something meaningful.
and do not compare color sampling, do not grade them heavily since c100 is just 420 while BMCC and scarlet are basically raw (scarlet is 16bit in dynamic range, BMCC is 12, c100 is just 8)
thats why their file sizes are so freaking big that only SSD can handle.
get them at the same exposure level, see which image quality is suprior than the other, make sure set scarlet at 1080p tho, dont downscale scarlet from 4k.
this is unfair test from its very begining, as Scarlet costs nearly 10K for just the brain, 3 times more than BMCC brain. and it costs 20K for scarlet to work, 6k for BMCC to work, while C100 works out of box.
they are built for different purpose, so please try to setup a scene that is fair for all of them, like a interview head shot, and compare something meaningful.
Why not compare the DR? It's a spec. C100 is supposed to have 12 using C-Log, right? Are you going to cripple it so that it doesn't appear to be 12?
Scarlet's like 11.5~12, going to cripple that?
Detail is ONE slice of the entire pie.
Blackmagic is 16-Bit Linear, stored at 12-bit, unpacked back to 16 in Resolve.
There's no such thing as setting Scarlet at 1080P (I feel like I'm being trolled lol) . You scale from 4K, that's how it works.
C100 costs 6.5K doesn't it?
Blackmagic works fine "out of the box" as much as C100 does, with an SSD. Or are you talking about NDs? Cool, add another 50.00 to that. So 3500.00 to make it work.
Need a handle? Okay, add 150. 3650.
Trust me, I've done the math, you don't need 6K to shoot Blackmagic. 6K would be a very healthy shooting setup with laser cut foam cases etc.
Yes, compare something meaningful with all cameras at their best. Good idea. Not sure why anyone would hobble another tool into the bracket of the next.
That'd basically be me saying don't compare them in lowlight because Blackmagic will not do as well as C100. Uh, yeah, that's exactly why you compare them, so you know. And yes, C100 will destroy Blackmagic in lowlight/no light as far as noise floor goes.
ok then , forgive my ignorance about scarlet
but tell me how blackmagic is going to last on location for 2 freaking hours ? for an full day shooting with tight schedules, you need rigs and batteries
and SSD is an issue ! for a entrie day shoot, C100 needs one 64GB SD card which costs 150, which records 6 hrs approx. for the same amount of time BMCC needs 12 256GB SSDs.
and also, does it offer Flipping screens like Red and Canon C? then you need a monitor for BMCC rite?
this is the end, Im not arguing this anymore, they are built for different purpose, Im still waiting for my BMCC order since last Aug. sigh
Interesting, my business partner, Rudy, one of your co-workers has our zeiss lenses, I thought he would be be back from vegas before the rental started but we'll only have one day after he gets back. I'm DPing a short in late Feb on RED and the new Can CN-E 30-105, he said you may be interested in cam op. Buddy from IGN is producing, let us know if you want in, obviously help filming this weekend is cool too. I'm not interested in matching exposure. I only care about how it is to operate each camera and what differentiates each look. As far as I'm concerned, bodies and sensors are just stocks.
Stop the tangential bull, I asked what people would REASONABLY want compared, not lets theoretically quibble
You said "out of the box". How will a full day of shooting on a C100 go out of the box with one battery? It's not like extra batteries are free, even if they are cheaper.
But I'll tell you that it lasts two hours on a Sony FS100 battery, reported by one of our users. And I can tell you that it lasts about 7 to 8 hours on one Swit S160 battery.
You can get a Sandisk 240GB SSD for 150.00 on Amazon. I know because I just bought two of them while I'm waiting for my camera. You may not shoot RAW for that long, but ProRes you get about three and a half hours, and it's still 10-bit 422 ProRes, better than anything coming out of any DSLR etc with nearly the same latitude. It's good to have an option built into camera me thinks.
Depends on how you want to shoot, I would prefer a monitor myself. So pick one. You're still not in the 6.5K range that it costs for a C100.
You shouldn't argue it, there's no reason to do so especially if you consider the two cameras set out for different types of shooting. I'm just clarifying some things for you.
You said 6K to get Blackmagic ready for a shoot, it isn't 6K.
It's pretty obvious that the C100's a pick-up-and-document-this camera. People still want to compare them, so okay. At least try to understand them a bit before you do so, was the point.