Blackmagic Pocket 6K Pro with Internal ND Filters and EVF

Does Sony have a patent on the internal electronic VND? Surprised we've never seen it anywhere else and other mfgs are still using multiple traditional filters to rotate through.
 
ahalpert said:
I don't mean combining with external ND, I mean if you could use the internal 6-stop and 4-stop simultaneously to achieve 10 stops of reduction. But I'm guessing they would have mentioned that and, as Jim Feeley pointed out, they may already be combining only a 2 and a 4 to make 6
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I’m not sure but from the graphics on the BMD website I think they may be already combining filters to make the 6 stop.
 
filmguy123 said:
Does Sony have a patent on the internal electronic VND? Surprised we've never seen it anywhere else and other mfgs are still using multiple traditional filters to rotate through.
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FUJIFILM X100V has an internal ND filter.
 
ahalpert said:
For that matter, ARRI and RED don't have internal ND and Brawley says he wouldn't use it anyway since he likes to test his filters and make sure they're in peak form. It's all a state of mind as to what must be included and what needn't be. Ultimately you just want the best design for your needs and the labels be damned
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mini, mini LF have internal ND.

I don't mind the term "production camera". Even though smaller shoots are still productions, to me it describes a camera that contributes to an efficient workflow in a more traditional on set environment, whether that's through robust connections, internal ND, more/well-thought out real estate etc.

Check the subheadings from some camera companies:

Canon C series:

C100 ii - Get high performance and mobility for all video operations

C300 ii - EOS C300 Mark II is your creative filmmaking partner

C500 ii - Make Your Masterpiece

C700 - Experience wide dynamic range 4K imaging

C300 iii - Super 35mm Cinema EOS Camera delivers high dynamic range and 120p 4K recording

C200 - 4K compact digital cinema camera expands your creativity

C70 - Professional Cinema – Powerfully compact

C70/200/300iii - are these the cameras most likely to be purchased by (young) shooters looking to level up, so maybe they receive the more aspirational buzzword?

Same with RED, no "cinemas" until the komodo. I'm surprised how low octane they are given the usual branding:

RED RANGER - ULTIMATE IN RELIABILITY AND STANDARDIZATION WITH UNIBODY DESIGN AND INTEGRATED I/O. AVAILABLE WITH 3 SENSOR OPTIONS: MONSTRO 8K VV, HELIUM 8K S35, AND GEMINI 5K S35.​

DSMC2 - UNPARALLELED PERFORMANCE AND MODULARITY. THE WORKHORSE SOLUTION CAN BE RIGGED AS SMALL OR LARGE AS NEEDED AND IS AVAILABLE WITH 4 SENSOR OPTIONS: MONSTRO 8K VV, HELIUM 8K S35, GEMINI 5K S35, AND DRAGON-X 6K S35.​

KOMODO - A COMPACT CINEMA CAMERA WITH GROUNDBREAKING 6K GLOBAL SHUTTER SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN A SHOCKINGLY SMALL AND VERSATILE FORM FACTOR.

Arri (obviously not worried):

Amira - Go anywhere, shoot anything

Alexa Mini - More than just a camera

Alexa Mini LF - Large format, small camera

Alexa 65 - The largest format: our exclusive 65 mm digital camera system

ok morning wasted thanks Abe.
 
ahalpert said:
never a morning wasted on dvxuser! anyway, that was a tour de force marketing assessment

I suppose the minis get internal ND to aid their compactness? If you want to shoot without a matte box or just a clip-on?
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LOL!

The drone people for sure love the internal filters.

I know a couple of mini owners who love the build-in NDs. I don't know much about stacking filters in matte boxes but assume there could be instances where a single filter + internal ND might be preferred over stacked in a matte box? That's different to John doing it for quality control reasons though.
 
rob norton said:
I don't know much about stacking filters in matte boxes but assume there could be instances where a single filter + internal ND might be preferred over stacked in a matte box? That's different to John doing it for quality control reasons though.
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At the very least, it might eliminate interreflections between filters so you don't need to tilt the filter trays. ...at least I think it does

I'm all for internal ND. I was bringing it up because I'm also becoming an autofocus fan, but then I hear cries of "cinema cameras don't have/need autofocus". So I was trying to say that "cinema" cameras don't have/need built-in ND/evf either
 
filmguy123 said:
Does Sony have a patent on the internal electronic VND? Surprised we've never seen it anywhere else and other mfgs are still using multiple traditional filters to rotate through.
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DLD said:
FUJIFILM X100V has an internal ND filter.
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1. Emphasis on Electronic VND (the Sony's are electronic and stepless AFAIK) - does Sony have a patent on this?
2. FUJIFILM X100V - awesome they have it in there at all in such a small body! Though it appears to only be for photo mode and not video mode?
 
NorBro said:
Not sure about every model Fujifilm has, but the ND in the best video model they have (X100V) doesn't work in video (only photo).

Canon's XC10/15 (if applicable) was most likely the first.

Sony's ZV-1 has one (impressive for that model/price).
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___


Z CAM eND.jpg
 
About two or three years ago Tilta showed a prototype of an e-ND for RED cameras in a PL mount similar to the Z-Cam version Norbro posted, but it never got released. At the time they were working on trying to fix the color cast that showed up when using the e-ND:

https://tilta.com/2018/09/forthcoming-products-from-birtv-and-ibc-2018/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUlKjFiNeqM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5HEePhlCuA

Panavision have an e-ND that fits into a matte box. I'm not sure if it ever got released or if it was/is a rental item only:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/06/02/panavision-lcnd-first-look/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POVfNDdru-8

https://vimeo.com/339794183

The Sony e-ND is really one of their finest camera technologies. If they are ever available to bring that to the lesser priced cameras, they would be very hard to beat. Sony says that with current technology they are unable to offer the e-ND in cameras that have IBIS and/or are too small, which explains why the FX3 did not get the e-ND as it has IBIS and is too small. Hopefully this is something that can be overcome in the near future.
 
Teddy_Dem said:
About two or three years ago Tilta showed a prototype of an e-ND for RED cameras in a PL mount similar to the Z-Cam version Norbro posted, but it never got released. At the time they were working on trying to fix the color cast that showed up when using the e-ND:

The Sony e-ND is really one of their finest camera technologies. If they are ever available to bring that to the lesser priced cameras, they would be very hard to beat. Sony says that with current technology they are unable to offer the e-ND in cameras that have IBIS and/or are too small, which explains why the FX3 did not get the e-ND as it has IBIS and is too small. Hopefully this is something that can be overcome in the near future.
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I have wondered if critical inspection of the FX6/FX9 e-ND could reveal color casts, such as IR pollution. Otherwise what is the reason for not using this in Venice?
 
All built-in ND filters have IR control and it's enough to satisfactorily contain any pollution for most people, but it's also the big reason why image extremists (in the sense of controlling their final product on set) use higher-quality matte box filters.

I think RED going with Canon's RF mount was a clever way to get some ND control in their cameras (via the Canon adapter).
 
NorBro said:
All built-in ND filters have IR control and it's enough to satisfactorily contain it for most people, but it's also the big reason why image extremists (in the sense of controlling their final product on set) use matte box filters.
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But isn't the strength of the IR cut tailored to the strength of the ND filtration? So if you had individual or rotating ND's a specific amount of IR cut for each. How do you do that with one e-ND that's continuously variable? Or maybe the strength of IR cut is not tailored to strength of ND filtration?
 
Tom Roper said:
I have wondered if critical inspection of the FX6/FX9 e-ND could reveal color casts, such as IR pollution. Otherwise what is the reason for not using this in Venice?
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That's a good question. I think one of the reasons behind this was that when they consulted with Claudio Miranda (and probably a few other DPs) one of the requests was an 8-stop ND with the same familiar steps that most DPs are accustomed to using in their matte boxes. If you look on page 21 of this FD times document you can see where it states this:

https://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/articles/sony/FDTimes-Sony-VENICE-V2.0.pdf

So far Sony's e-ND is from 2 to 7 stops, while the Venice's mechanical ND is 1 to 8 stops. The Venice's ND system seems to be a big reason that DPs like the camera as in this article Khalid Mohtaseb mentions that the ND system in combination with the Rialto head and X-OCN made him purchase 2 Venice cameras:

https://sonycine.com/articles/shot-on-venice----the-small-escape-/

Maybe the next iteration of the Venice or it's successor will switch the e-ND format. I've seen folks wonder if Sony is doing internal adjustments to nullify color casts with the e-ND. If so, that is a crazy good system as the the ND ramps up and down so quickly if set to AutoND and moving from light to dark or the reverse.
 
NorBro said:
That's a good question...IDK, but if it's not changing I think they would average it out.
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It probably doesn't matter, the only thing that should is the wavelength of the IR cut. I have 4x5.65 Hot Mirror for IR filtration that is clear.
 
ozmorphasis said:
The only bummer, and I know how strongly you feel about this Mark, is that I wish it had a locking mount. With the P4k, you can use the metabones EF cine adaptor combined with a cage that has the metabones support. You get locked both at the camera and at the lens. Not perfect, but pretty damn secure. A still lens bayonet EF mount is still a bit of a bummer, especially with follow focus and/or just heavier lenses. It's nice to achieve rock solid connection even without rails.
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So the old camera had it and this doesn't? I don't understand BMD. They have no standard across the board. It's like they go and see what's cheap today in the chinese parts bin and make a camera out of that. Next time around it might be a totally different set of parts in the discount bin, so they make totally different camera. It's like all their cameras are one ofs. This is the part that makes it very hard for me to take them seriously as pro tools.
 
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