Black Magic PocketHD and 4K production camera

I think it's rather funny that people on here are now nitpicking these camera apart.


If I was to announce on this board a week ago that a 4k camera with global shutter and 12 stops of DR was coming out for $4k, I would have been laughed off the board. Same if I said a HD version of the BMCC was coming out shortly that was the size of an iPhone and supported CinemaDNG RAW.

we have literally jumped two years in the future in just one week. Has anyone taken stock it what we are witnessing?
 
yoclay; said:
No way I am going for the Pocket camera then. Just imagine.
People should take a good hard look at their pre-orders before getting caught up in the hype.
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My thoughts exactly. Although, as owner of a number of m43 and specifically Lumix lenses, it's hard to express just how alluring it was to see the beloved 7-14 on there, fully functional. I was soooo reaching for my wallet! But, IMO, pre-orders have proven to be a sure way to disappointment. I will gladly wait for a production model, where qualified testing can be done. I also have questions about overall sharpness, if it is indeed a 1920x1080 single chip.
That said, it's only $995, and it is tiny, so even if it can't be relied on for every shot, it could certainly come in handy for those shots you can't get any other way. There's something to be said for a pocket cam; I think of the BMPCC in the same way as I think of a GoPro. Just one look at it will let you know this is not intended to be an A-camera! Simultaneously, that same one look will have you saying "I want one of those..."

[/quote]The 4K thing is another story. Can anyone confirm that there will not be aliasing/moire issues because it is 4K as Squig mentions?
An OLPF is definitely not needed? Calling Barry Green![/QUOTE]
I would vehemently disagree that "an OLPF is not needed just because the sensor is 4K." and I would refer those with questions about it to the extensive writings of Graeme Nattress, who was an engineer on the design team of a genuine 4K cinema camera (the RED One and its successors) and who has written voluminously about why an OLPF is an absolutely necessary component of the imaging chain.

Note also that even higher-res sensors all find it necessary (high-res stills cameras), and that aliasing reveals itself with motion, meaning that the appropriately-tuned OLPF is substantially more important for a motion image camera.

BlackMagic puzzles me. On one hand they clearly learned the lesson of their design shortcuts (the pocket cinema cam includes interchangeable batteries, a DC input jack, a more appropriate lens mount, and it is an ACTIVE mount!) but at the same time they totally ignored the most egregious failing in their design, the lack of a proper OLPF. Odd. It sounds like they expect to develop some sort of add-on, either by themselves or with Mosaic or whatever. I am not interested in a non-OLPF camera but may become very interested when the proposed solution is a reality and can be evaluated.
 
^^ if you have to have a OLPF, then this definitely isn't the camera for you. There are plenty with an OLPF.

Why cry over something that BM clearly has no intention of providing at least in this family of cinema cameras? I mean everyone probably has ONE thing they think ought to be on the camera but was left off. A camera is all about trade offs for price and functionality.. The value of the BM family of cameras is off the chart if the camera limitations will work for the user. Clearly they won't work for you guys. This isn't the camera of choice for hair commercials and such obviously.
 
Sfernald said:
I think it's rather funny that people on here are now nitpicking these camera apart.


If I was to announce on this board a week ago that a 4k camera with global shutter and 12 stops of DR was coming out for $4k, I would have been laughed off the board. Same if I said a HD version of the BMCC was coming out shortly that was the size of an iPhone and supported CinemaDNG RAW.

we have literally jumped two years in the future in just one week. Has anyone taken stock it what we are witnessing?
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Yeah, I have taken stock..definitely. For me it's not the size of the pocket cam that's a selling point, it's the image capability for the price, can't be beat from that perspective.
Sure, it will have some rolling shutter issues...so does the 1DC at $12,000. Sure it will produce some moire...but the image will likely be sharp, detailed, and otherwise solid given the great sensor that it's using. S16 won't produce ultra shallow shots as easily, and wide lenses are harder to find, but I don't want razor thin DOF anyway...and the wides I can work with.
No codec issues, no 4:2:0 color limitations, no crippled HDMIs, no having to transfer footage to an edit format, no being told you can't have high DR, 4:2:2 10 bit color, and compressed raw as an option for $995.....that's all astounding to me.
 
pulpfiction007 said:
No codec issues, no 4:2:0 color limitations, no crippled HDMIs, no having to transfer footage to an edit format, no being told you can't have high DR, 4:2:2 10 bit color, and compressed raw as an option for $995.....that's all astounding to me.
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+1. At the price point, I agree it is astounding.
 
Barry_Green said:
My thoughts exactly. Although, as owner of a number of m43 and specifically Lumix lenses, it's hard to express just how alluring it was to see the beloved 7-14 on there, fully functional. I was soooo reaching for my wallet! But, IMO, pre-orders have proven to be a sure way to disappointment. I will gladly wait for a production model, where qualified testing can be done. I also have questions about overall sharpness, if it is indeed a 1920x1080 single chip.
That said, it's only $995, and it is tiny, so even if it can't be relied on for every shot, it could certainly come in handy for those shots you can't get any other way. There's something to be said for a pocket cam; I think of the BMPCC in the same way as I think of a GoPro. Just one look at it will let you know this is not intended to be an A-camera! Simultaneously, that same one look will have you saying "I want one of those..."
Click to expand...
The 4K thing is another story. Can anyone confirm that there will not be aliasing/moire issues because it is 4K as Squig mentions?
An OLPF is definitely not needed? Calling Barry Green![/QUOTE]
I would vehemently disagree that "an OLPF is not needed just because the sensor is 4K." and I would refer those with questions about it to the extensive writings of Graeme Nattress, who was an engineer on the design team of a genuine 4K cinema camera (the RED One and its successors) and who has written voluminously about why an OLPF is an absolutely necessary component of the imaging chain.

Note also that even higher-res sensors all find it necessary (high-res stills cameras), and that aliasing reveals itself with motion, meaning that the appropriately-tuned OLPF is substantially more important for a motion image camera.

BlackMagic puzzles me. On one hand they clearly learned the lesson of their design shortcuts (the pocket cinema cam includes interchangeable batteries, a DC input jack, a more appropriate lens mount, and it is an ACTIVE mount!) but at the same time they totally ignored the most egregious failing in their design, the lack of a proper OLPF. Odd. It sounds like they expect to develop some sort of add-on, either by themselves or with Mosaic or whatever. I am not interested in a non-OLPF camera but may become very interested when the proposed solution is a reality and can be evaluated.[/QUOTE]

And how does the lack of OLPF on the BM compare to the binning and scaling of every DSLR which a lot of people use anyway? I think sadly to a certain degree the world has excepted a small amount of aliasing and moire. Sure having none is better but compared to how DSLRs build an image riddled with moire and aliasing I don't exactly consider BM a downgrade due to a lack of OLPF. In fact the current BMCC seems to have less than most DSLRs do including the GH2 which I believe to date is the better of the DSLRs when it comes to handling aliasing and moire. Now compared to a highend camera you are 100% correct but I think most people here who already use DSLRs would consider any BM camera even without an OLPF a pretty big upgrade especially considering the cost.
 
What is best about these cameras from Black Magic, or any other manufacturer for that matter, is that nobody is under any obligation to buy them. If when they come they don't suit the buyers needs, well, don't buy them. It is that simple.
 
pulpfiction007 said:
Lol, I do wonder how other "smaller" companies like Red and DBolex will react to this release. The reactions would be interesting of course for different reasons, since Red is established and DBolex is trying to break into the game.
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The booths were right next to each other
 
For the record, as an owner and avid supporter, I do think that the aliasing/moire needs a fix. It may not bother some, so perhaps NEED is not the right word, but I really would like to see one soon. It doesn' tmatter to me if it's hardware or software, as long as I can remove or drastically reduce the appearance of it without taking a hit to image quality (moving to a stills program to do this is NOT ideal) then cool.

It won't stop me from purchasing and employing, but I would like to see it addressed asap.
 
Kholi said:
For the record, as an owner and avid supporter, I do think that the aliasing/moire needs a fix. It may not bother some, so perhaps NEED is not the right word, but I really would like to see one soon. It doesn' tmatter to me if it's hardware or software, as long as I can remove or drastically reduce the appearance of it without taking a hit to image quality (moving to a stills program to do this is NOT ideal) then cool.

It won't stop me from purchasing and employing, but I would like to see it addressed asap.
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and as a previous owner and a hopeful supporter I completely concur with Kholi. Moire is there. But so are 13 stops DR and delicious codecs choices. Keep the pressure up on Mosaic and all will be well.
Now, I'm not falling for the pre-order this time around. I will instead put a few hundred bucks away every month until I can buy with one day shipping. Until then, I will continue shooting with what I have....
 
Tzedekh said:
This same criticism can be extended to their decision to use virtually all of the BMC's design, including the much-criticised nonremovable battery, on the 4K camera, or not taking what they learned on adding an active-MFT to the two-thirds-cheaper pocket camera and quickly applying it to the MFT-mount BMCs. I can understand wishing to repurpose a design as much as possible, but surely no one would've balked if the 4K camera cost a few dollars more because it had a removable battery.
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The removable battery isn't a concern for their actual customers. Thus, no need to change the design on the 4K camera, which will likely not be a concern for their actual customer base as well.

For the most part, aside from the lens mounts, they have a target and they're hitting it. If somoene wants a removable internal battery that bad they they're looking at the wrong camera, as it's likely to NOT have several other features that this specific kind of person would want (ND filters, XLRs, Kelvin Sliders, etc).

There are cameras out there that fit this specific customer's desires... I don't understand why people don't just buy those and be happy. C100's right there, has been discounted, has all of this (well, not the same color and DR, but according to some opinions close enough).
 
Kholi said:
The removable battery isn't a concern for their actual customers. Thus, no need to change the design on the 4K camera, which will likely not be a concern for their actual customer base as well.

For the most part, aside from the lens mounts, they have a target and they're hitting it. If somoene wants a removable internal battery that bad they they're looking at the wrong camera, as it's likely to NOT have several other features that this specific kind of person would want (ND filters, XLRs, Kelvin Sliders, etc).

There are cameras out there that fit this specific customer's desires... I don't understand why people don't just buy those and be happy. C100's right there, has been discounted, has all of this (well, not the same color and DR, but according to some opinions close enough).
Click to expand...
Yes, the built in battery is really a non-issue. I'm sure a majority of readers here have and iPhone? An iPad? There are plenty of other power solutions for the BMC that at the same time power other devices at the same time (monitor, evf, recorder).
 
dustylense said:
Yes, the built in battery is really a non-issue. I'm sure a majority of readers here have and iPhone? An iPad? There are plenty of other power solutions for the BMC that at the same time power other devices at the same time (monitor, evf, recorder).
Click to expand...

Yes, I do have both - and both will run all day on one charge. That's not the case with the BMC. I can also continue a phone conversation using my car as a power source, but how can I continue a shoot from inside a car?

Watching Philip Bloom's review, his camera died within a few hours of use out in the field. That, to me, is unacceptable. I think having an internal battery is a terrible design flaw. I don't know of any professional cameras that have this feature, and for good reason. I guess there's external power options, but the question is, why? Why is this even necessary?

I wouldn't be surprised that by NAB '14, BM has created a new design that fixes the battery issue.

I know I'm not going to buy a BMCC or the BM4K, unless there's a really good, reliable, easily portable and inexpensive option for power. I did, however, pre-order the BMPC - with its removable battery.
 
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