Black Magic PocketHD and 4K production camera

^ I'd love to have a better look at that image, can you point me to a higher-res, less compressed version? (I can't see anything here)
 
simonpwood said:
Which is which?
Click to expand...

So you saying, you can't tell 4k Red material from 2.5k BMC material?

I bet Blackmagic would love to hear that. Hehehe!

...just kidding.

Actually I'm working on a little project on the side now, that looks into this.
After looking at Material we shot over 3 weeks on BMC, Red1 and Epic, I was shocked.

And while at it, I was also throwing some glass into the game.


...and yeah, the left picture is BMC - the moire gives it away.
 
There is nothing to be gained from that image. In this day and age it is impossible to upload good looking and original sized files somewhere?
 
Postmaster said:
Well, yes and no.

Here is a comparison at a 500% crop of an
Scarlet (with OLPF) at 4k
and a BMC at 2.5k

Both have moire (at other places though) and with the Wavelet compression and OLPF of the Scarlet,
it looks more soft and muddy, despite the fact it has a much higher resolution to start with.

View attachment 69606
Click to expand...

To be brutally honest - I have not seen any great work coming off the Scarlet….
Please show me if you have found some….
But I have seen some great work from the BMCC….
 
Given the frame grab that he posted: resolution.

That's a central crop from a much bigger frame, and the 2.5K BMC looks clearly sharper than the 4K Scarlet.

I'd add that apart from the OLPF, the other big thing here is uncompressed RAW vs wavelet compression.

I'm also in the middle of a BMC project, and I initially proposed to use a CineForm RAW workflow, since the files are a fifth of the size and playback is 14 fps instead of 1.4 fps. I sent a couple of clips to the VFX guys to see if the compression wouldn't create them any issues, and they killed the CineForm RAW option in a matter of seconds: first, because even the mildest compression option kills A LOT of fine detail, and second, because the debayering method that Adobe Camera RAW uses is INCREDIBLY SHARPER than what CineForm Studio can offer. It's like night and day. No contest whatsoever.

So, if you compress that BMC shot to CineForm RAW, it will be clearly softer than the Scarlet. But in uncompressed DNG, well, you can see it for yourself: that BMC shot (left) is clearly sharper than the Scarlet one (right).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eELXgpR2NfQ/UWV3W13HtbI/AAAAAAAAAsQ/421wW6w1CmQ/s1398/Shoot.jpg

(I knew it was really sharp, but I certainly didn't expect it to be sharper than a Scarlet shooting 4K!)

edit:
@postmaster, framing was the same in both shots, right? And did you get them to a common resolution before cropping the center? maybe 4K? are your ingesting directly into AE, or are you using Resolve, or something else?
 
Last edited:
Honestly I never felt detail was REDs strength but it sure did make some darn good scaled down 1080p deliverables. Shooting side by side with my GH2 at work I seem to always preferred the look of my GH2 compared to our RED one camera. Didn't have a chance to compare against our new RED Epic before I left the company. Perhaps I preferred my hacked GH2 since it was my own personal camera but it seriously impressed my boss and held its own compared to our RED.
 
yoclay said:
Mosaic does not answer queries about this. The BMCC OLPF question has been around for 3/4 of a year. Who knows when that issue will be dealt with.
Sorry, but it is too convenient for Blackmagic to pass it off on 3rd parties. I am surprised that they have not learned their lesson on this issue yet. It is major. No way for the pocket camera.
Click to expand...


What are you talking about......

Countess cameras do not have an OLPF including my very own GH3. Moire and over sharp images are just dialed down in post or softened while shooting. Honestly go take a look at the thousands of videos done without them.
Too much talking for the wrong things on these boards, in all honesty most people look at life with the cup half full, I on the contrary.......
 
Samuel H said:
G.. they killed the CineForm RAW option in a matter of seconds: first, because even the mildest compression option kills A LOT of fine detail,
Click to expand...

Hmm.. I compared Cineform debayering to Resolve debayering and found Cineform only marginal softer.
Which of the debayering algorythms of Cineform have you used?
And much more important, are you sure the little "C" ikon on the computer of your VFX guys wasn't set to "Auto".
It makes a huge difference.
 
Samuel H said:
Given the frame grab that he posted: resolution.

That's a central crop from a much bigger frame, and the 2.5K BMC looks clearly sharper than the 4K Scarlet.

I'd add that apart from the OLPF, the other big thing here is uncompressed RAW vs wavelet compression.

I'm also in the middle of a BMC project, and I initially proposed to use a CineForm RAW workflow, since the files are a fifth of the size and playback is 14 fps instead of 1.4 fps. I sent a couple of clips to the VFX guys to see if the compression wouldn't create them any issues, and they killed the CineForm RAW option in a matter of seconds: first, because even the mildest compression option kills A LOT of fine detail, and second, because the debayering method that Adobe Camera RAW uses is INCREDIBLY SHARPER than what CineForm Studio can offer. It's like night and day. No contest whatsoever.

So, if you compress that BMC shot to CineForm RAW, it will be clearly softer than the Scarlet. But in uncompressed DNG, well, you can see it for yourself: that BMC shot (left) is clearly sharper than the Scarlet one (right).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eELXgpR2NfQ/UWV3W13HtbI/AAAAAAAAAsQ/421wW6w1CmQ/s1398/Shoot.jpg

(I knew it was really sharp, but I certainly didn't expect it to be sharper than a Scarlet shooting 4K!)

edit:
@postmaster, framing was the same in both shots, right? And did you get them to a common resolution before cropping the center? maybe 4K? are your ingesting directly into AE, or are you using Resolve, or something else?
Click to expand...

I don't think Frank's res chart shots are representative of either camera. By his photos they are not even resolving to DSLR range, only about 300 lines vertical clean for either. Either his lens is in really bad shape or there are back focus issues.

The BMCC can easily resolve 750-800 lines vertical with some moire and aliasing, more than twice what is showing. A full quality downscale to 1080p from Red 4k will handily resolve 850-900 lines vertical with no aliasing, as good as HD gets.
 
yoclay said:
Mosaic does not answer queries about this. The BMCC OLPF question has been around for 3/4 of a year. Who knows when that issue will be dealt with.
Sorry, but it is too convenient for Blackmagic to pass it off on 3rd parties. I am surprised that they have not learned their lesson on this issue yet. It is major. No way for the pocket camera.
Click to expand...

I, and a few others, have actually passed emails back and forth with Mosaic. The last email that I received stated that they were trying to put the first OLPFS for Blackmagic cameras on their next run, test OLPFs.

Today I'll follow-up to check the status, but they have answered some of us, or at least myself.
 
Kholi said:
I, and a few others, have actually passed emails back and forth with Mosaic. The last email that I received stated that they were trying to put the first OLPFS for Blackmagic cameras on their next run, test OLPFs.

Today I'll follow-up to check the status, but they have answered some of us, or at least myself.
Click to expand...
I too have had exchanges with Mosaic regarding the BMC and the Gh3. Basically, they need the cameras in shop to develop a filter. Obviously they need to test the filter on the camera they need in the shop. Give it time. But with the BMC they would make a killing in sales as the camera needs one on certain shots. But it's kinda the beauty with the BMC and the Mosaic that you can use it remove it instead of being forced to use it. I ran into lots of moire on the BMC. But then I also shot lots of images where it was clean as a whistle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top