Atomos Ninja Now Shipping According To Press Release - SDI Samurai at $1495.00 USD

Also note in the Abelcine blog, AndyShipsides says"

"It records in 60i, to get 24p back pull-down needs to be removed in post."

I was hoping this was not the case :(
 
Is this accurate for the AF100? (records to 60i so you need to do pulldown removal?) - And is this the same then for 25p?
 
Samurai does pull-down, Ninja doesn't. If you remove the pull-down in post you'll still get the massive quality benefit, longer record times, 10 bit, 4:2:2, cheaper storage etc.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
This is where the confusion is lying. In a previous post, you mentioned that if you shoot progressive, there would be no need to deinterlace. For me, this extra step is way too much effort. I'm hoping that a future firmware can recognize the 24p flags in the HDMI stream to actually only record 24 progressive frames.


David Shapton said:
Samurai does pull-down, Ninja doesn't. If you remove the pull-down in post you'll still get the massive quality benefit, longer record times, 10 bit, 4:2:2, cheaper storage etc.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
Click to expand...
 
bgundu said:
This is where the confusion is lying. In a previous post, you mentioned that if you shoot progressive, there would be no need to deinterlace. For me, this extra step is way too much effort. I'm hoping that a future firmware can recognize the 24p flags in the HDMI stream to actually only record 24 progressive frames.
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% but I believe the Nanoflash is the only HDMI recorder the removes pulldown. And I think this is because frames aren't actually flagged in the HDMI stream and the Nanoflash uses a clever work around to do it.
 
It's a confusing subject - especially if you're on the PAL side of the Pond, where it's always been a lot simpler (but we had colour TV 10 years later than in the US, and we can't even spell "colour").

I'll try to explain. What I said in an earlier post was that if you shoot in 24 frames per second progressive there would be no need for de-interlace.

If your camera outputs a TRUE 24p (ie 24 progressive frames, with no pulldown) then the Ninja records that. If your camera outputs a 60i signal with a 24p signal embedded via pulldown, the Ninja does not have the capability to remove the pulldown. This is an actual hardware difference between the Ninja and then Samurai - the Samurai does have the additional hardware resources required to do this. It's WAY more than just recognizing a flag - you have to actually process the video to do this in real-time. That's why it can be quite slow in software.

I hope this helps.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
Hi Dave. Let me start by saying that it's awesome that you are here to answer our questions! We all know that the AF100 is able to record at true 24p. I'm just confused as to what happens to that signal coming through HDMI? I guess the bottom line question is, when using the AF100, are you able to record direct to disk, a ProRes mov file that is 24fps, when recording 1080p24 without having to do a pulldown removal?

Thanks Dave!


David Shapton said:
It's a confusing subject - especially if you're on the PAL side of the Pond, where it's always been a lot simpler (but we had colour TV 10 years later than in the US, and we can't even spell "colour").

I'll try to explain. What I said in an earlier post was that if you shoot in 24 frames per second progressive there would be no need for de-interlace.

If your camera outputs a TRUE 24p (ie 24 progressive frames, with no pulldown) then the Ninja records that. If your camera outputs a 60i signal with a 24p signal embedded via pulldown, the Ninja does not have the capability to remove the pulldown. This is an actual hardware difference between the Ninja and then Samurai - the Samurai does have the additional hardware resources required to do this. It's WAY more than just recognizing a flag - you have to actually process the video to do this in real-time. That's why it can be quite slow in software.

I hope this helps.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
Click to expand...
 
Hi Dave. Let me start by saying that it's awesome that you are here to answer our questions! We all know that the AF100 is able to record at true 24p. I'm just confused as to what happens to that signal coming through HDMI? I guess the bottom line question is, when using the AF100, are you able to record direct to disk, a ProRes mov file that is 24fps, when recording 1080p24 without having to do a pulldown removal?
Click to expand...

Well, can I just say that I think it's awesome that people are on here asking questions in the first place!

As far as 24p is concerned, I was talking in general terms - not about the AF100, because it does seem to have some characteristics that apply to that camera only.

We are getting reports in from users about this and the 101, but we're getting a mixed message. Some say it works, others say it "sort of" works, and others say it doesn't really work at all. We need to get more data in to be able to discern a pattern here. What we might be seeing is a difference between American and European models.

Meanwhile, we're getting great results with "true" video cameras and we all know about the issues with DSLRs in general. We're all going to NAB, so that will be a good time to get as much information as possible about all of this, and we'll report back if we do.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
I very curious indeed. A word of warning Dave, many consider, as do I, the AF100 a "true" video recorder. I am curious what the cameras that apparently work are? From your firmware roadmap, isn't the current firmware not 25p compatible yet? That would explain the european cameras not working properly? As none of the DLRs have a clean HDMI output, I'm guessing the next biggest market is probably with AF100 and FS100 type of cameras? I would assume that extensive testing and compatibility are going to be targeted towards them? Otherwise the next step up is the Samurai. Until DSLRs get proper HDMI outputs, this leaves the Ninja in a very precarious position with very few cameras that can truly benefit from this recorder. Sorry I'm just thinking out loud. I think many really just want the Ninja to be the amazing recorder that it appears to be.

David Shapton said:
Well, can I just say that I think it's awesome that people are on here asking questions in the first place!

As far as 24p is concerned, I was talking in general terms - not about the AF100, because it does seem to have some characteristics that apply to that camera only.

We are getting reports in from users about this and the 101, but we're getting a mixed message. Some say it works, others say it "sort of" works, and others say it doesn't really work at all. We need to get more data in to be able to discern a pattern here. What we might be seeing is a difference between American and European models.

Meanwhile, we're getting great results with "true" video cameras and we all know about the issues with DSLRs in general. We're all going to NAB, so that will be a good time to get as much information as possible about all of this, and we'll report back if we do.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
Click to expand...
 
David Shapton said:
Samurai does pull-down
Click to expand...

Dave,

Do you know if Abel is going to sell the Ninja, & Samurai? I still haven't decided on a recorder, but if so I'll likely get on the list for the Samurai. Hopefully there will be some good independent tests available before it hits the shelves.

I also hope you get an early unit in Olof's (Westside AV) hands so he can have a mount available when the units ship.

Best,
Bern
 
Boncrek said:
I would have thought something like Cineform would have been chosen as its multi-platform.
Click to expand...
Well, please keep in mind that technically ProRes is as multi-platform as Cineform is. Apple does make a free downloadable decompresser for Windows.

I guess the big difference there is that you cannot ever create ProRes files on the Windows platform, whereas if you bought a version of Cineform you could indeed author Cineform files on both platforms.

And, the biggest issue -- none of these codecs are universally installed by the OS. That's the part that's going to make hassles for everyone using these external recorders. No matter which codec you choose, some of your clients aren't going to be able to play the footage because they're not going to have the codec installed. You, as the user, are going to have to become versed on telling your clients on both platforms how to download and install the requisite codec on whatever computer they plan on using. Within that context ProRes at least comes installed with FCP systems (I don't know if it's installed on *all* Macs by default or only those with FCP?) so if you are recording in ProRes mode and your client is a Mac user, the odds of you having to walk them through post-prod issues is probably lessened as compared to if you used either CineForm or DNxHD. Then again, if your client is using Avid, DNxHD will be installed by default regardless of what platform they're on, so you have a chance of a completely hassle-free experience with either ProRes (for a Mac/FCP user) or DNxHD (for an Avid user on either platform). With CineForm, they would have to specifically have bought and installed the third-party codec in order to work with those files, so...

There's no easy answer. All of them have their pluses and minuses. There's only one truly, really good solution (and I'm not being facetious) -- add support for both DNxHD and CineForm! :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
bgundu said:
I think many really just want the Ninja to be the amazing recorder that it appears to be.
Click to expand...
For AF100 users, I would seriously say skip the Ninja and wait for the Samurai. Just my opinion only and I'm sure Dave will weigh in with Atomos' official stance, but -- I've got a Nano (which has both HDMI and HD-SDI inputs), and there is no force on earth that could get me to use it in HDMI mode instead of HD-SDI. HD-SDI is just -- well, it's the way it should be done. Everything about the HD-SDI standard is better, everything about HDMI is worse. The connector is worse, there's no timecode, and (as already said) there's no 24PsF. The AF100 has the ability to output 24PsF and the Samurai will (if I'm reading Dave correctly) be able to record it directly, as 24p, no pulldown.

The Ninja would be viable for HDMI-only cameras, such as the Sony FS100. But if you've got access to HD-SDI, by all means, step up to the Samurai (or Nano or Ki Pro Mini or Gemini or whatever HD-SDI recorder of your choice). Not only is the connection better, not only will you have access to true 24p recordings without pulldown, not only will you have a bigger higher-res screen, but Dave's already said that there are hardware differences that make the Samurai more powerful and capable of things that the Ninja isn't.
 
David,
Thanks for your input here on dvxuser and over on vimeo.


I know this is not an official tally but add me to the Cineform list for the Samurai.
If I got the Proress Samurai and you guys added Cineform to the line up would that be updated via firmware or would it require new hardware thus a new unit?
 
I agree with you Barry. Today I'm getting a refund on my Ninja and am going to see what NAB and eventually Samurai will hold.

Barry_Green said:
For AF100 users, I would seriously say skip the Ninja and wait for the Samurai. Just my opinion only and I'm sure Dave will weigh in with Atomos' official stance, but -- I've got a Nano (which has both HDMI and HD-SDI inputs), and there is no force on earth that could get me to use it in HDMI mode instead of HD-SDI. HD-SDI is just -- well, it's the way it should be done. Everything about the HD-SDI standard is better, everything about HDMI is worse. The connector is worse, there's no timecode, and (as already said) there's no 24PsF. The AF100 has the ability to output 24PsF and the Samurai will (if I'm reading Dave correctly) be able to record it directly, as 24p, no pulldown.

The Ninja would be viable for HDMI-only cameras, such as the Sony FS100. But if you've got access to HD-SDI, by all means, step up to the Samurai (or Nano or Ki Pro Mini or Gemini or whatever HD-SDI recorder of your choice). Not only is the connection better, not only will you have access to true 24p recordings without pulldown, not only will you have a bigger higher-res screen, but Dave's already said that there are hardware differences that make the Samurai more powerful and capable of things that the Ninja isn't.
Click to expand...
 
Brian@202020 said:
I'm not 100% but I believe the Nanoflash is the only HDMI recorder the removes pulldown. And I think this is because frames aren't actually flagged in the HDMI stream and the Nanoflash uses a clever work around to do it.
Click to expand...
It can and does, but their 'clever workaround' doesn't always work -- as witnessed by its inability to properly remove pulldown from AF100 720p. Ideally they would support the timecode flag system too, and let the user choose which method they wanted to use. The timecode flag system will always 100% work on any Panasonic AG or AJ camera at least, and would be a vastly simpler process to implement than comparing fields and frames bit-by-bit. Hopefully they will get the tech specs and be able to implement it soon.
 
Dear Barry,

We have signed a NDA with Panasonic and they have (or will shortly) send us the confidential document that details how their flags work.

Please note, that as far as I know, based on public documents, the Flags are implemented via one of the timecode fields, the timecode user bits.

If so, then the timecode user bits are output via HD-SDI, but typically not HDMI.

The Sony FS100 may output timecode User Bits. We will know soon. We know it outputs timecode.

But, FS100 is a Sony camera and we will have to determine what mechanism they use.
 
Yep, that's true, it would only apply to HD-SDI output. Sony appears to be making their own proprietary HDMI transport protocol, it will be interesting to see how that all works out.
 
Barry_Green said:
For AF100 users, I would seriously say skip the Ninja and wait for the Samurai.
Click to expand...

I was just going to say why not just wait for the Samurai, but Barry beat me to it.

Barry_Green said:
There's only one truly, really good solution (and I'm not being facetious) -- add support for both DNxHD and CineForm! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Agreed 111%

And if you don't think you can afford the Samurai... well, there's the line from Seven Samurai:

How can we find a Samurai we can pay with only rice?
Find hungry Samurai.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top