Any chance to get 4K2HD Prores super slowmotion with end trigger?

[Gene Sung]

Yep, that post was from three months ago. That's a long time in camera world. To get the entire roadmap of features, Mitch, how long are we talking about? A year, 2 years? Just would like some realistic estimations here.

At this point I would be pretty happy just getting 4K2HD and 4K ProRes at 60fps. It's taking so long to get things done (firmware, battery plates, LUTS, Monitor Hoods, etc…), I now have realistic expectations. I think if they just make the minimum of what they promised (60fps) and get it in a semi-reasonable timeframe (4K compressed in summer), that's probably about it / end of life for the 7Q. I don't expect HFR, 4K Trigger, Anamorphic, etc… because it would take too long.

But that's OK, because I can live without those features even though it would be nice. Just get us the basics of what was promised.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I wish I could give you dates, I reaaly do. We just don't know.

May I note that we currently do four out of that list of eight, and item #5 arrived even though we weren't sure if we could make it happen properly at the time.

Number 7 is getting close. It leads to things important not just for the FS700.

Don't think you care about #4 too much, but I'm sure you want the version of it inside #5. It's coming soon too.

Number 6 comes after #7. A different priority level.

And number 8 is definitely last on the list. We will do what we can, but we must do other things first.

So if you don't think about #8 right now, the timeline is fairly short for the rest. "This summer" is generous. It damn well better be.

 

[Pgale]

So Mitch, where realistically do you see the other ProRes data rate formats - standard and LT on the roadmap? Are they significant chunks of work or smaller but just less important (in your eyes) than the other features you're working on?

 

[boosh]

The 4k2HD is so good with the fs700 and 7q. I really can't wait for 60p in 4k2hd and also 4k proves versions.

 

[sunnyjimfilms]

I suspect we can effectively rule #8 out reading between the lines. Shame, that to me was an attractive feature. Ho hum. Like to see the rest implemented soon mind.

 

[Prendi]

I suspect we can effectively rule #8 out reading between the lines. Shame, that to me was an attractive feature. Ho hum. Like to see the rest implemented soon mind.

I hope that's not the case. Otherwise I'll be getting my money back. The ProRes options (2k HFR ProRes and 4k ProRes) were the reason I bought this thing!

 

[Mitch Gross]

It is not ruled out yet. It remains to be seen how fast we will be able to go.

Prendi, ever see the fine print in every manufacturer's spec sheet. Where it says "subject to change without notice"? We fully intend to implement what we have stated. But if something proves to not be possible, then it's not possible. But we have not reached such a point at all at this time.

 

[paulcurtis]

I'm most interested in the things we cannot get any other way. Other stuff can be transcoded externally. So 2K HFR ProRes, just transcode the 2K RAW, you can get more out of it that way anyway.

Getting the buffered 4K 120fps output is one thing we simply cannot get at the moment. We can capture 60p 4K RAW now, and that's what the buffer outputs so ideally it shouldn't be so difficult?

Then the rest are time and space saving - 4K ProRes would be very useful and helpful and that's on the list.

Nothing else is showstopping.

that's IMHO

cheers
Paul

 

[Gene Sung]

Hey Mitch,

I personal am fine with 240fps being in 2K RAW, but it's really inconvenient right now.

The problem with 2K 240fps and 4K RAW 60fps is that it records across 2 SSD cards. It wouldn't be a problem EXCEPT, the when mixing frame rates, the 7Q fills up the first card before it starts on the 2nd card, so if shooting 240fps 2K or 4K 60fps RAW, it really limits the amount of shots you can do because once card 1 fills up, you can no longer shot 240fps 2K or 60fps 4K RAW because it needs two cards.

Is there any way to make a smarter data management when shooting HFP 2K or 4K 60fps RAW? Maybe have an option where we can choose to equally spread all footage across both SSDs. So even lower frame rates like 24fps will be spread across 2 SSDs, and Quicktimes like 4K2HD maybe have it record 1 minute on SSD1 then switch to SSD2 for 1 minute; and repeat that cycle.

Convergent would have to develop some type of stitcher app to merge all the files together from both SSDs, but at least that way we can shoot 240fps until both cards fill up.

With better data management, I would be fine with only having HFP in 2k RAW

 

[Prendi]

It is not ruled out yet. It remains to be seen how fast we will be able to go.

Prendi, ever see the fine print in every manufacturer's spec sheet. Where it says "subject to change without notice"? We fully intend to implement what we have stated. But if something proves to not be possible, then it's not possible. But we have not reached such a point at all at this time.

Mitch, ever read the Sales of Goods Act 1979 Amended? You're the spokesman for CD and I took your words to be true. Was that a mistake? Should I have had reason to suspect otherwise?

I purchased the 7Q based upon your roadmap and the promised features. If the roadmap was comprised of fairy dust, it should have been stated at the time.

So based upon the language you've used, can I assume that HFR 2k ProRes isn't looking likely?

 

[Gene Sung]

In defense of Mitch, sometimes these things are just more difficult than first though and the 240 FPS 4K2HD might be too crazy.

I think if they had better data management of 240fps like what I wrote above, it would be a decent compromise of sorts. With current 7Q data management, you're really limited on the amount of 240fps you can shoot if you mix frame rates.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Hey Mitch,

I personal am fine with 240fps being in 2K RAW, but it's really inconvenient right now.

The problem with 2K 240fps and 4K RAW 60fps is that it records across 2 SSD cards. It wouldn't be a problem EXCEPT, the when mixing frame rates, the 7Q fills up the first card before it starts on the 2nd card, so if shooting 240fps 2K or 4K 60fps RAW, it really limits the amount of shots you can do because once card 1 fills up, you can no longer shot 240fps 2K or 60fps 4K RAW because it needs two cards.

Is there any way to make a smarter data management when shooting HFP 2K or 4K 60fps RAW? Maybe have an option where we can choose to equally spread all footage across both SSDs. So even lower frame rates like 24fps will be spread across 2 SSDs, and Quicktimes like 4K2HD maybe have it record 1 minute on SSD1 then switch to SSD2 for 1 minute; and repeat that cycle.

Convergent would have to develop some type of stitcher app to merge all the files together from both SSDs, but at least that way we can shoot 240fps until both cards fill up.

With better data management, I would be fine with only having HFP in 2k RAW

We are looking at a few types of data management schemes to address this, as we do recognize the issue you point out. Our challenge is that we want to make it as effortless for people to offload and organize their material as possible, and we don't want anyone to struggle with why files may appear out of order or difficult to locate. That could be a real stress-inducer. But we think we can sort it out so that it presents as something straightforward to the end user. Definitely something we're working on.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch, ever read the Sales of Goods Act 1979 Amended? You're the spokesman for CD and I took your words to be true. Was that a mistake? Should I have had reason to suspect otherwise?

I purchased the 7Q based upon your roadmap and the promised features. If the roadmap was comprised of fairy dust, it should have been stated at the time.

So based upon the language you've used, can I assume that HFR 2k ProRes isn't looking likely?

No, and please stop putting words in my mouth.

We don't know if it is likely or unlikely. We do know that it is very difficult to do, but we like difficult.

We are working on it, but we don't know how long it will take to hit the target, or if something might come about to prove the target unattainable. We are not saying that we cannot do it, and it theoretically can be accomplished. But there are a lot of hurdles in the way in what is incredibly complicated math. We are discussing a recorder that weighs a pound. There's a huge amount of computing power in it, but it is not an infinite device.

 

[Gene Sung]

We are looking at a few types of data management schemes to address this, as we do recognize the issue you point out. Our challenge is that we want to make it as effortless for people to offload and organize their material as possible, and we don't want anyone to struggle with why files may appear out of order or difficult to locate. That could be a real stress-inducer. But we think we can sort it out so that it presents as something straightforward to the end user. Definitely something we're working on.

Thanks Mitch,

Perhaps just have an option where you can have the old / original file management system or choose the newer, more efficient file management system for 2 SSDs?

 

[Colinelves]

Hey Mitch,

I personal am fine with 240fps being in 2K RAW, but it's really inconvenient right now.

The problem with 2K 240fps and 4K RAW 60fps is that it records across 2 SSD cards. It wouldn't be a problem EXCEPT, the when mixing frame rates, the 7Q fills up the first card before it starts on the 2nd card, so if shooting 240fps 2K or 4K 60fps RAW, it really limits the amount of shots you can do because once card 1 fills up, you can no longer shot 240fps 2K or 60fps 4K RAW because it needs two cards.

Is there any way to make a smarter data management when shooting HFP 2K or 4K 60fps RAW? Maybe have an option where we can choose to equally spread all footage across both SSDs. So even lower frame rates like 24fps will be spread across 2 SSDs, and Quicktimes like 4K2HD maybe have it record 1 minute on SSD1 then switch to SSD2 for 1 minute; and repeat that cycle.

Convergent would have to develop some type of stitcher app to merge all the files together from both SSDs, but at least that way we can shoot 240fps until both cards fill up.

With better data management, I would be fine with only having HFP in 2k RAW

Having more than 2 SSDs is one simple way to deal with this - when the first one is full, swap it for a new one.

To to be honest, your suggestion sounds like a nightmare to me. Far easier would be to have the primary slot user definable. ie when SSD 1 starts getting full (due to regular speed footage) you just tell the o7q to started recording on SSD2. (For the regular speed stuff) - as you can with multi slot cameras. If you want it brainless possibly have an option where the unit automatically swaps the primary slot after each clip.

 

[Gene Sung]

Having more than 2 SSDs is one simple way to deal with this - when the first one is full, swap it for a new one.

To to be honest, your suggestion sounds like a nightmare to me. Far easier would be to have the primary slot user definable. ie when SSD 1 starts getting full (due to regular speed footage) you just tell the o7q to started recording on SSD2. (For the regular speed stuff) - as you can with multi slot cameras. If you want it brainless possibly have an option where the unit automatically swaps the primary slot after each clip.

I have 4 SSDs and the issue Mitch and I are talking about is probably different than what you are thinking as it is not solvable by just telling it switch onto SSD 2. It's obviously an issue and a pain because Mitch is aware of it and has Convergent actively trying to find a better solution.

Sounds like they're going to have an option where you choose to stay with the old or the new data management system if you have two SSDs in.

 

[Colinelves]

I have 4 SSDs and the issue Mitch and I are talking about is probably different than what you are thinking as it is not solvable by just telling it switch onto SSD 2. It's obviously an issue and a pain because Mitch is aware of it and has Convergent actively trying to find a better solution.

Sounds like they're going to have an option where you choose to stay with the old or the new data management system if you have two SSDs in.

I think it is solvable by switching to SSD2, unless I misunderstood what your issue is.

It seemed like you have a problem with the fact that, when mixing frame rates, the 'main' SSD fills up faster than the secondary SSD. So you end up downloading both faster than you need to. Only, already, you don't have to download any sooner. You can just pop a new SSD into slot 1 and it will carry on recording new high speed clips across both. There's no need to download pairs of SSDs, just download the full ones.

Hell, if you like you can safe eject both SSDs, take SSD2 and pop it in slot 1 (making it the new primary) and put an new SSD into slot 2. That seemed to work okay for me the last time I was mixing frame rates a lot.

Being able to switch the primary SSD just makes it a bit more efficient - as you can avoid filling either SSD because, after each clip, you can swap the primary SSD to whichever one has the most space on it. This means you can shoot for a while longer before you have to download anything.

At the end of the day, CD clip merger doesn't really care which SSD the spanned folders came from. It doesn't matter if half the spanned folders on an SSD are marked SSD1 and half are marked SSD2. The only thing that's important is that each numbered clip has an SSD1 folder in one place and an SSD2 folder in another and you offload them to the same folder for combining.

If this isn't the issue I'd be interested to know what is (not in a snarky way, I'm genuinely interested in hearing about any potential problems I might encounter in the future.)

Cheers,

 

[Gene Sung]

@ Colin,

Mitch and I just feel that the current system needs to be automated a bit more when shooting 240fps. Yes, you can probably continually physically switch SSDs when shooting 240fps, but that still is not as elegant or efficient of a solution as it spreading all files across two SSDs and I'd rather just have the 7Q do the switching for me so I don't have to think about it. Plus, if you're constantly switching SSDs, you're going to have footage spread over even more SSDs, which is not ideal.

Also, Mitch has mentioned that you should format an SSD with data every time you re-insert it. I can say from personal experience that this is crucial. I spent a day doing pixel peeping tests where I removed and re-inserted the same SSD a number of times without formatting. And guess what? The files became corrupted eventually. After that, I now format the drive every time when re-insert an SSD with data on it. To me, it's not worth corrupt footage.

It's just seems a lot more simple to just have the 7Q spread all the footage equally spread over two SSDs when mixing frame rates with HFP or 4K 60 fps, and then using a program like stitcher to piece them all together. That's really not much different than what's going on right now with FPR or 4K RAW 60fps, just a bit of a tweak for mixed frame rates.

I'm sure Convergent will think of a better solution than what I suggested, but yes, it's very inconvenient to mix HFP footage right now and Mitch is aware of it as well.

 

[Colinelves]

@ Colin,

Mitch and I just feel that the current system needs to be automated a bit more when shooting 240fps. Yes, you can probably continually physically switch SSDs when shooting 240fps, but that still is not as elegant or efficient of a solution as it spreading all files across two SSDs and I'd rather just have the 7Q do the switching for me so I don't have to think about it. Plus, if you're constantly switching SSDs, you're going to have footage spread over even more SSDs, which is not ideal.

Also, Mitch has mentioned that you should format an SSD with data every time you re-insert it. I can say from personal experience that this is crucial. I spent a day doing pixel peeping tests where I removed and re-inserted the same SSD a number of times without formatting. And guess what? The files became corrupted eventually. After that, I now format the drive every time when re-insert an SSD with data on it. To me, it's not worth corrupt footage.

It's just seems a lot more simple to just have the 7Q spread all the footage equally spread over two SSDs when mixing frame rates with HFP or 4K 60 fps, and then using a program like stitcher to piece them all together. That's really not much different than what's going on right now with FPR or 4K RAW 60fps, just a bit of a tweak for mixed frame rates.

I'm sure Convergent will think of a better solution than what I suggested, but yes, it's very inconvenient to mix HFP footage right now and Mitch is aware of it as well.

I don't really like the idea of having individual video files spread across two SSDs, unless strictly necessary (too much risk of your video file getting corrupted). It's less of an issue with DNGs as they're discreet image files, not a video file. Having the Odyssey automatically switch the primary slot for each clap would get you most of the way there I would have thought, without too much hassle. The swapping SSD slots was just a suggestion on how to do it currently, but manually or automatically selecting slots would be the easiest option IMO.

 

[Prendi]

No, and please stop putting words in my mouth.

We don't know if it is likely or unlikely. We do know that it is very difficult to do, but we like difficult.

We are working on it, but we don't know how long it will take to hit the target, or if something might come about to prove the target unattainable. We are not saying that we cannot do it, and it theoretically can be accomplished. But there are a lot of hurdles in the way in what is incredibly complicated math. We are discussing a recorder that weighs a pound. There's a huge amount of computing power in it, but it is not an infinite device.

Mitch, when you posted the "roadmap", this seemed like a pretty definitive list of features that you would be adding. You didn't word it as a wishlist or that these feature might not be attainable, but as a well thought out and definite list. That's why I bought it. I think it's unprofessional to now say that that list might not be attainable. Some might describe it as fraudulent.