A1 and editing
- Thread starter SamKam
- Start date
Elton
Veteran
Barry_Green said:
I don't know what your issue with Vegas and 24F is. Many users report success capturing this mode within the NLE and working in a 24P timeline.
Shane Valdez has been using a Firestore FS-4 (with HDV firmware upgrade) and 24F with success since early this year. The newer Firestore C actually recognizes the F modes from the Canon cams and shows a display of "1080 24F" with a choice of m2t or QT HDV capture.
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's exactly what I wanted to hear.
As for Vegas, I only have 6. They made substantial improvements in 7 to the HDV portion. I believe Vegas 6 was released before there even was a Canon 24F mode. And not all programs support 24F, it's not automatic, the transport stream is different.
If people are able to get Vegas 6 to capture 24F footage, then that means there's something wrong with mine, because it wouldn't recognize the Canon in 24F mode at all. It would recognize it in 60i mode, and in DV mode, but not in 24F mode. But DV Rack HD (and HDV Rack) ate it up, had no problems at all.
As for Vegas, I only have 6. They made substantial improvements in 7 to the HDV portion. I believe Vegas 6 was released before there even was a Canon 24F mode. And not all programs support 24F, it's not automatic, the transport stream is different.
If people are able to get Vegas 6 to capture 24F footage, then that means there's something wrong with mine, because it wouldn't recognize the Canon in 24F mode at all. It would recognize it in 60i mode, and in DV mode, but not in 24F mode. But DV Rack HD (and HDV Rack) ate it up, had no problems at all.
Barry_Green said:
Yes. I've only shot 24f on this camera as my interest is in narrative film. In my preliminary tests I have set the camera to shoot 24F and record directly to the FS-C. And I have been able to play back these files from the FS-C and see them in the viewfinder.
I'll do more rigorous tests tomorrow for the sake of completeness. I'll shoot some 24f scenes to tape and to the firestore simultaneously and compare them to make sure they are the same. I'll ingest the tape footage into FCP over firewire (using the HDV-1080p24 preset) and the FS-C files using MPEG Streamclip to generate Photo-JPEG files (I wouldn't edit Photo-J files, but they are darned near lossless). I'll then do a frame by frame comparison to verify that the motion cadence is the same between the files and that my MPEG Streamclip conversion isn't doing any framerate conversion funny business. And report back.
And of course, while I'm shooting, I'll verify that I can play back footage from the FS-C into the camera's viewfinder.
How does that sound?
xray
Well-known member
Juan Diaz said:
Great! as aspected. I wonder how the Sony HVR-DR60 is doing... With the NP-F970 batteries you can work to approx.810 minutes (13.5 hours) with it.
I bet it is working on the A1 with the loss of:
- Checking the operational status (On the LCD and VF you see connection, rec status, battery level, remaining recording time, recording folder name, etc.).
- Synchronize with the record command that is outputted from the camcorder.
That only will work with Sony V1U. Someone to check it out?
Last edited:
Jay Rodriguez
Coffee Member
you go Juan! I can't wait to see what you come back with.
Which Firestore do you have?
Which Firestore do you have?
Juan Diaz said:
SamKam said:
I hate to contradict someone from Focus Enhancements, but Audrey's statement is abslutely false, at least as it applies to the FS-C. I just got back from shooting my test, and I had no trouble recording 24f straight to disk, and playing it back throught the viewfinder. When I play it back the A1 correctly identifies the frame mode of the footage and displays "24F" on screen.
A quick perusal of the FS-C manual also identifies support for 24F. Download the manual for the FS-C and check out page 55 of the PDF document (Page 39 as listed in the manual). The manual states that the file naming convention for M2Ts includes a reference to the file's native frame size and rate. One of the files I just recorded is named "20061213-115716D01.m2t" and the D identifies the file as "1080i, 23.976 fps".
I haven't captured the footage yet but I will and I'll post a split screen of the tape recorded footage and the Firestore recorded footage. I'll include a more detailed message with my workflow for getting both versions of the footage in my Final Cut Timeline. So far, so good.
Oh yes, and per Coffee's question; the model I have is the FS-C. It's the model that's specifically designed for Canon DV/HDV camcorders. But according to Matt McEwen of Focus Enhancements in a post over at DVInfo, this model is the same as the FS-4ProHD but with the addition of a mount specific for the XL-H1. Here's a link to that thread.
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=75538&highlight=FS-C
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=75538&highlight=FS-C
Jay Rodriguez
Coffee Member
Ok thanks Juan... I look forward to seeing what your going to post.
As for the Firestore, now I'm worried about how to mount it. Mine will be here today and I didn't mention that it was for the Canon.
As for the Firestore, now I'm worried about how to mount it. Mine will be here today and I didn't mention that it was for the Canon.
coffee said:
I wouldn't worry too much about it. The mount that ships with the FS-C is for the XL-H1, it doesn't work with the A1/G1. So whichever firestore you buy you'll have to either buy Focus' general purpose hotshoe mount or find another way to mount it. Me, I'm just using the included belt clip for now. Looks like some gigantic iPod from the 90's.
Jay Rodriguez
Coffee Member
lol, ok good. I'll see how I can rig it up and report back... I'm still waiting for FedEx to deliver it today.
Fellas,
Ok here is the link to the file. Please right click and choose to save.
http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/juan/vids/Firestore-Tape-24F_test-H.264.mov
So here was my workflow for the test:
1. The camera was set to 24F with a tape loaded and the FS-C set to "Tapeless". In tapeless mode, the firestore will sync to the record control on the camera even if there isn't a tape loaded. But, if you do have a tape loaded hitting record and stop will control both the tape deck and the firestore.
2. I shot a scene with lot's of in frame motion to be able to check temporal cadence in case the firestore was adding pulldown or anything goofy. I shot with a clapper in order to have a sync reference so I could line up the two clips.
3. I captured the clip on tape in Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 via Firewire using the HDV 1080p24 easy setup. This created a 23.976 fps "QuickTime HDV" file in my bin.
4. I then connected the FS-C to my computer. The clip showed up as an M2T file named "20061213-115716D01.m2t". The Firestore naming convention for M2T files is YYYYMMDD-HHMMSSX01.m2t, where the X is a code that denotes the native frame size and rate. The "D" in the name indicated that the file was 1080i, 23.976 fps. A good sign.
5. Because Final Cut Pro doesn't support M2T files, I used MPEG Streamclip to convert the file to DVCPro HD. I didn't specify a frame rate for the target file because if I leave the field blank, MPEG Streamclip will create a file with the same frame rate as the original. I ended up with a 23.976 fps DVCProHD file.
6. I exported the HDV file that I had captured from tape into DVCProHD so that I could edit both clips into the same timeline.
7. I created a DVCProHD 1080/24p sequence and edited both clips into it in different tracks and used the clapper to line them up. I then split screened the two tracks so you can see them play back at the same time.
So if there were any differences in the frame rates or pulldown between the recording on tape and the recording on the FS-C, I would have expected to two clips to drift from each other, or not match, or for one clip to have interlace artifacts from pulldown or something. But this wasn't the case. The two clips lined up perfectly the first time and in fact I had to add the red divider line so that you could even have a hint that you were watching two split-screened clips.
I hope this settles the question once and for all. Yes you can record native 24F on an FS-C. I would expect the results of this test to apply to the FS-4ProHD since supposedly they're really the same machine. But you know how it goes, there's no substitute for testing.
Happy shooting.
Juan
P.S. I did check playback to the on camera viewfinder/LCD. After shooting the clip, I ejected the tape and hit play on the Firestore so I new I was actually looking at Playback from it. Everything worked fine, so I then unplugged the firestore from the camera, put the tape back in and played the clip from tape. They both worked fine.
Ok here is the link to the file. Please right click and choose to save.
http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/juan/vids/Firestore-Tape-24F_test-H.264.mov
So here was my workflow for the test:
1. The camera was set to 24F with a tape loaded and the FS-C set to "Tapeless". In tapeless mode, the firestore will sync to the record control on the camera even if there isn't a tape loaded. But, if you do have a tape loaded hitting record and stop will control both the tape deck and the firestore.
2. I shot a scene with lot's of in frame motion to be able to check temporal cadence in case the firestore was adding pulldown or anything goofy. I shot with a clapper in order to have a sync reference so I could line up the two clips.
3. I captured the clip on tape in Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 via Firewire using the HDV 1080p24 easy setup. This created a 23.976 fps "QuickTime HDV" file in my bin.
4. I then connected the FS-C to my computer. The clip showed up as an M2T file named "20061213-115716D01.m2t". The Firestore naming convention for M2T files is YYYYMMDD-HHMMSSX01.m2t, where the X is a code that denotes the native frame size and rate. The "D" in the name indicated that the file was 1080i, 23.976 fps. A good sign.
5. Because Final Cut Pro doesn't support M2T files, I used MPEG Streamclip to convert the file to DVCPro HD. I didn't specify a frame rate for the target file because if I leave the field blank, MPEG Streamclip will create a file with the same frame rate as the original. I ended up with a 23.976 fps DVCProHD file.
6. I exported the HDV file that I had captured from tape into DVCProHD so that I could edit both clips into the same timeline.
7. I created a DVCProHD 1080/24p sequence and edited both clips into it in different tracks and used the clapper to line them up. I then split screened the two tracks so you can see them play back at the same time.
So if there were any differences in the frame rates or pulldown between the recording on tape and the recording on the FS-C, I would have expected to two clips to drift from each other, or not match, or for one clip to have interlace artifacts from pulldown or something. But this wasn't the case. The two clips lined up perfectly the first time and in fact I had to add the red divider line so that you could even have a hint that you were watching two split-screened clips.
I hope this settles the question once and for all. Yes you can record native 24F on an FS-C. I would expect the results of this test to apply to the FS-4ProHD since supposedly they're really the same machine. But you know how it goes, there's no substitute for testing.
Happy shooting.
Juan
P.S. I did check playback to the on camera viewfinder/LCD. After shooting the clip, I ejected the tape and hit play on the Firestore so I new I was actually looking at Playback from it. Everything worked fine, so I then unplugged the firestore from the camera, put the tape back in and played the clip from tape. They both worked fine.
xray
Well-known member
Thank you Juan, good work!
FS-4(pro)HD and FS-C work both on the XH-A1 in 1080i /30F /24F
The FS 4 pro HD and the FS-C can be updated (version 2.0) to use the native HDV QT format.
But the .m2t is not always as simple to record (generally), TC in the stream can be misunderstood by some recorders. So I wonder if the Sony....
FS-4(pro)HD and FS-C work both on the XH-A1 in 1080i /30F /24F
The FS 4 pro HD and the FS-C can be updated (version 2.0) to use the native HDV QT format.
But the .m2t is not always as simple to record (generally), TC in the stream can be misunderstood by some recorders. So I wonder if the Sony....
Juan, thank you for your thorough and meticulous work. And for helping me to decide to buy the A1.
xray, if the Firestore is updated will it record in HDV QT as opposed to m2t? and will that then import cleanly (without the need to convert to DVCProHD) into FCP? is there any benefit to the m2t file over the HDV QT? (apologies for my ignorance)
xray, if the Firestore is updated will it record in HDV QT as opposed to m2t? and will that then import cleanly (without the need to convert to DVCProHD) into FCP? is there any benefit to the m2t file over the HDV QT? (apologies for my ignorance)
SamKam,
You're welcome. I don't know if I should be embarrassed to say this but I kindof enjoyed the opportunity to geek out.
Regarding the firmware upgrade, I haven't purchased it yet, but my understanding from the literature is that it allows you to record Quicktime HDV files just like the ones created when you capture tape over firewire. I think in most cases recording to this format would be the way to go if you're editing in FCP. I've been experimenting with capturing M2Ts and using MPEG Streamclip to batch convert all the footage to DVCPro HD because I will be working on a project that also involves the HVX, so for me, DVCPro HD is a good "lingua Franca" between the two cameras. In other words just 'cause I'm doing it doesn't make it the best solution for everyone.
The fact that the upgrade allows you to record to Quicktime HDV is nice and makes recording very FCP friendly. Yes, you should be able to just drag the files into Final Cut and start rockin'.
You're welcome. I don't know if I should be embarrassed to say this but I kindof enjoyed the opportunity to geek out.
Regarding the firmware upgrade, I haven't purchased it yet, but my understanding from the literature is that it allows you to record Quicktime HDV files just like the ones created when you capture tape over firewire. I think in most cases recording to this format would be the way to go if you're editing in FCP. I've been experimenting with capturing M2Ts and using MPEG Streamclip to batch convert all the footage to DVCPro HD because I will be working on a project that also involves the HVX, so for me, DVCPro HD is a good "lingua Franca" between the two cameras. In other words just 'cause I'm doing it doesn't make it the best solution for everyone.
The fact that the upgrade allows you to record to Quicktime HDV is nice and makes recording very FCP friendly. Yes, you should be able to just drag the files into Final Cut and start rockin'.