A1 and editing

Barry_Green said:
I would be very surprised if it worked for 24F or 30F. Sony decks don't support 24F or 30F at all, so I wouldn't expect their firewire hard disk recorder to support it either.
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What about the Firestore? Does that support 24F?
 
There is an upgrade for Firestore HDV that allows QT 24F support. It isn't actually necessary for other programs like Vegas because they recognize the 24P recording in the m2t stream.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yeah, but the question is will the FireStore recognize the 24F stream? And if so, do all versions support it?
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The FS-4 HD family all recognize the 1080i HDV m2t, which includes a 24F stream.

It's no different than capturing raw transport streams with DVHS Cap or CapDVHS on the PC.

You can capture 24F streams and the NLE (in this case, Vegas) recognizes the actual 23.98 progressive nature of the stream.

There's a $40 QT HDV upgrade available for most of the FS-4's which enables FCP support, including 24F mode.
 
That is why I explaind the Sony is .m2t and .avi only, there is no QT format in the software, but the stream for the 1080i is the same. It is clearly a beautifull harddisk recorder aimed to work with all the Sony camcorders -uses the same batterie- and Vegas. But you can use it for the 1080i HDV Canon stream too. That is with the 24F embedded stream.
 
Barry_Green said:
And the JVC deck will not play Canon footage at all.

There will likely never be such a deck. Canon has never built a deck, and Sony has no incentive to support a competitor's format.
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The question was if there will be a Canon deck and wat it costs, not if a JVC deck will play Canon. No, a Sony deck will not play Panasonic HD either. Like you said Canon never build decks. But for the costs a low end camcorder can serve as a deck for the Canon.

Better is -also mentioned- to look for a harddisk recorder, (Firestore / Sony), so you shoot on tape and disk at once, use the tape for backup and copy the harddisk to another hd and give that to the client or the editor. Now you can shoot with the Canon you have instant backup archive, you can review shots and edit immediately.

If there are shoots you want to shoot on tape only? Use the Canon as deck and import the footage. Voila.

Pass a harddisk (cheap, fast) to the client and keep the tape. You have more time with the family and friends and spend less backing up cards en disks to save the day.
 
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Barry_Green said:
And the JVC deck will not play Canon footage at all.

There will likely never be such a deck. Canon has never built a deck, and Sony has no incentive to support a competitor's format.
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Dang Barry, I was just trying to point out to the other fellow that it was unrealistic to expect any HDV deck for under 1K :)
 
Elton said:
The FS-4 HD family all recognize the 1080i HDV m2t, which includes a 24F stream.
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But -- not necessarily. Is it specifically spelled out that it does support 24F? FCP supported 1080i HDV but didn't support 24F until 5.1.2. Sony decks all support 1080i HDV but they don't play 24F at all. It's different. It's not the same transport stream, and they would have to specifically make it compatible with 24F.

It's no different than capturing raw transport streams with DVHS Cap or CapDVHS on the PC.
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And yet Vegas 6 can capture 1080i 60i HDV, but I can't get it to capture 1080/24F HDV. The data stream is different. The hardware would need to be extended to understand the 24F data stream.

Some programs do automatically; DV Rack 2.0 HD does, for example. So I'm not saying the FS-4 doesn't do it, I'm asking, because it is not a given that it would automatically do it.
 
Editing is more -much more- than writing a stream, so FCP or Vegas needs to know what are flags and what do they mean and how to write, and so on. They need to understand the stream. A harddisk needs only to 'place' the data that is coming from the firewire. It needs to write the stream, there is the difference.

A videodeck is fundamentally different from a harddisk recorder like the FS-4. Questions for the HDrecorder are how to connect clips that passes the 2 GiG. Can you keep on recording or do you need to brake it up in 2 Gig pieces? Does it understand the record on/off button function or do you need to hard record? And can you use other containers to store the stream?

Vegas and FCP are editing programs that use intern intermediates to handle the Iframe and in-betweens. The harddisk to record the data stream is more simple.
We know that FCP can edit 25F and 24F, so I don't see a problem.
 
xray said:
Editing is more -much more- than writing a stream, so FCP or Vegas needs to know what are flags and what do they mean and how to write, and so on. They need to understand the stream. A harddisk needs only to 'place' the data that is coming from the firewire. It needs to write the stream, there is the difference.

A videodeck is fundamentally different from a harddisk recorder like the FS-4. Questions for the HDrecorder are how to connect clips that passes the 2 GiG. Can you keep on recording or do you need to brake it up in 2 Gig pieces? Does it understand the record on/off button function or do you need to hard record? And can you use other containers to store the stream?

Vegas and FCP are editing programs that use intern intermediates to handle the Iframe and in-betweens. The harddisk to record the data stream is more simple.
We know that FCP can edit 25F and 24F, so I don't see a problem.
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So, if I understand you correctly xray, you believe the Sony should be able to record the 24F stream without a problem. right?
 
xray said:
We know that FCP can edit 25F and 24F, so I don't see a problem.
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But that's just the point -- FCP had to be MODIFIED to support 25F and 24F. Straight out of the box, for the last year, Canon XLH1 users could not edit their 24F or 25F footage on FCP. It wasn't until the announcement of 5.1.2 that they finally could.

And on the FS-4 and FS-C they only make mention of 1080i50 and 1080i60 streams. 24F is neither of those, and neither is 25F. It's actually a different stream. So unless the product is specifically designed *to* work with it, there's a good chance that it *won't* work with it.

Canon made their own format. Editors and decks and cameras don't necessarily work with it, you've got to check.
 
I don't think you get the point although I made it clear. There is a fundamental difference in editing and recording. You can record .mp3 on the ipod but also pictures and text or whatever. For the Sony I've got to check, Sony made their own format too, it records 1080i HDV2 native stream also the 'Sony 24*' stream.
 
For what it's worth, I have both an A1 and an FS-C. I haven't bought the firmware upgrade yet for the FS-C, so mine records to M2T files.

I use MPEG Streamclip to convert the files to an editing codec and, without specifying a frame rate for the converted file, I end up with a native 23.98 quicktime file. So yes the firestore does record 24f.
 
coffee said:
Barry, are you saying that the Firestore Pro will NOT record 24f?
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No, I'm *asking* whether it will or not. They make no mention of it on their website; they only spell out 1080/50i and 1080/60i.
 
Juan Diaz said:
For what it's worth, I have both an A1 and an FS-C. I haven't bought the firmware upgrade yet for the FS-C, so mine records to M2T files.

I use MPEG Streamclip to convert the files to an editing codec and, without specifying a frame rate for the converted file, I end up with a native 23.98 quicktime file. So yes the firestore does record 24f.
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Can you put the XHA1 in 24F mode and the FS-C records the files? And then can you play back those files on the FS-C and see them show up in the A1's viewfinder?

Only 24F here, 60i is not part of the discussion.
 
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