60d and 5d AUDIO findings!

Ronster

Well-known member
The 60d audio manually is so so. Which is a huge bummer. I thought for some reason the 60d and 5d could record solid audio. I have recorded audio through a mini-jack to xlr's on the sony Z1U (there are 2 versions of this camera one has xlr inputs and the other has mini-jack and I used the sony with the mini-jack). The audio even though it was coming off a mini-jack was still rock solid. So something in the Canon still camera body just doesn't have the ability to do this. Perhaps it is the preamp? I feel a beachtek is a waste of time here. Yeah you are controlling the levels but of mediocre audio. The zoom h4n is way better audio. I bought this as a supplement to my 7d. Basically as a B-Camera which is honestly great. but I really thought I was going to get solid audio. Not amazing but I thought it would be solid. It is just ok.

Here are some of my findings because I wish someone would have told me this. If you are on the fence here between the 7d and 60d I wouldn't say the audio should be a deciding factor because I don't feel this audio is that great on the 60d.

First off when you just go manual mode and use the internal 60d or 5d camera mic, which is a built in omni-directional mic, the audio is actually super solid and clean. The problem is if you go outdoors and it is windy or in a noisy environment then this mic just doesn't cut it. If you want to plug in a mic through the mini-jack that is where you will get into some problems.

Once you plug into that mini-jack you get this "hiss" noise. Basically there is something in the grounding or preamp on the camera body that can't handle a clean signal. It is usable I would say and if you put some filters on it you can clean it up or if you lay music under it again it is usuable. Especially for say internet stuff. Also just as b-roll audio and maybe stand up quick interviews it could work. I really was surprised how much cleaner the internal mic was over when I plugged a mic in through the mini-jack.

In terms of how you set audio on these cameras is also a pain. You can put the 60d in manual mode then set channel 1 and 2 levels. They are not independent. Meaning you can't adjust level 1 and level 2 separately. Both are married together so unless you have an outside mixer those two channels can't be adjusted independently. Also once you hit record you can't see your audio levels nor can you adjust them, again unless you have an outside mixer that also has the ability to show visually what is going on channel 1 and 2.

So all and all this audio upgrade from the 7d to the 60d and 5d is ok but it isn't anything to be that happy about. I think you could get away with some stand up interviews if you were running around doing stuff and for b-roll. But it is not good enough for sit down interviews or serious audio.

Ronster
 
I thought there was an AGC disable option on the 60D and magic lantern hacked 5D's? Isn't AGC what is causing your hissing?
 
AGC is causing huge amounts of hissing. and pumping of the hissing.

the other issue here is that the built in pre-amps aren't very good at all and not to mention don't play well with other devices.

getting rid of AGC on a crappy pre-amp , still leaves you with a crappy pre-amp.
 
I thought there was an AGC disable option on the 60D and magic lantern hacked 5D's? Isn't AGC what is causing your hissing?

A lot of factors here........

Going from inside to outside you should adjust your mic levels and turn on windscreen. Secondly it could be the microphone you have connected to your camera causing problems, as not all mics are created equal. Finally having owned a t2i I would say that the 60d disabling agc is a great thing. Nothing worst than having that ramping noise in quiet areas like the t2i use to do. The 60d is a lot better and definitely worth every penny. Finally these cameras are best represented as digital cinema and if you truly want professional audio your going to want to record it separately. Dslrs audio is one of their weak points, but when you factor everything else they can do and at the price they do it, it is simply unmatched in a league of it's own.
 
A lot of factors here........

Going from inside to outside you should adjust your mic levels and turn on windscreen. Secondly it could be the microphone you have connected to your camera causing problems, as not all mics are created equal. Finally having owned a t2i I would say that the 60d disabling agc is a great thing. Nothing worst than having that ramping noise in quiet areas like the t2i use to do. The 60d is a lot better and definitely worth every penny. Finally these cameras are best represented as digital cinema and if you truly want professional audio your going to want to record it separately. Dslrs audio is one of their weak points, but when you factor everything else they can do and at the price they do it, it is simply unmatched in a league of it's own.

I agree for the most part with what you are saying but even with the AGC disabled the audio off the cameras is so so. I would not count on it other than for b-roll or maybe quick stand up interviews.

It is the not mics or the connections I am using. I'm plugging in Sennheiser ME-64, Sennheiser ME-66, and the zoom h4n....all have gotten me amazing sound. I used 3 different mini-jacks. One mini to mini for the zoom H4N to the camera and two different mini to xlr's. The camera has a "hiss" when you plug into that mini jack. PERIOD. I tested it on the 60d and the 5d with AGC turned off and putting it in manual audio mode.

There is no "hiss" when you are just using the camera mic with AGC turned off. But then you are limited to the omni-directional mic that is built into the camera. As soon as you plug something into that mini-jack you are getting a "hiss". The "hiss" is somewhat acceptable but not for really good quality audio.

I would just recommend using a separate audio recorder and having the mic as a back up.

Ronster
 
There is no "hiss" when you are just using the camera mic with AGC turned off. But then you are limited to the omni-directional mic that is built into the camera. As soon as you plug something into that mini-jack you are getting a "hiss". The "hiss" is somewhat acceptable but not for really good quality audio.

Ronster

The 60D has a AGC on/off in the menu?
 
I just shot a music video with my 60d and the playback was insanely loud (it has to be so the drummer can hear it), so I turned down the audio levels. It came out fine, the audio is good enough to sych the studio track to it.
 
I used to find many moons ago that ME-66 / ME-64 on an old Canon XL-1 produced hiss when some other mics didn't. You should try some other mics, It could be a mismatch. That said I wouldn't expect great audio in anycase. AGC shouldn't produce hiss.
 
Post this question in the audio forum of DVXuser and they can help you. It has to do with the power of your mic going to the camera. (or something to that effect) Sorry I can't be more helpful or give more info but they can explain trust me. Also there is a product called Juiced Link that is a box that does this along with some visual levels that properly converts the power so you won't hear the hiss anymore.


There are numerous threads on this.

Link for the JuicedLink
http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-dt454
 
I did a test in one of the voice over booths at work and ran over the results with our dubbing engineer. There's definitely pre-amp hiss introduced in manual mode, but it responds to noise reduction plugins very well. I'd have no qualms about using the audio for b-roll sync atmos outside (or even vox pops in a noisy location) but wouldn't want to use it in an interview scenario. I used a juicedlink pre-amp and a sennheiser 416 mic.

HTH
 
Guys, what do you expect from a camera purpose-built for stills with video as an afterthought (which is where DSLR video came from - "hey, we're sending a lot of pixels to the LCD, might as well capture that stream"...)

You're trying to get good audio from an unbalanced system that (to make things even worse) uses a 1/8" stereo mini jack, has no phantom power and has really sub-par preamps packed into a tiny space, a system where the quality of the audio capture was obviously a very very low priority?

I love my Canon DSLR, but my years-old DVX runs circles around it for audio capture, as will most any XLR-equipped box. People can get "acceptable" sound from it with adapters and runarounds, but how many gigs do you do where "acceptable" is what you really want to deliver? Especially for audio quality? Especially when a decent mic, a decent capture device and a little skill can give you crisp, pristine audio with presence and detail? Don't stick a great mic with a quality cable on a decent boom pole and run it through a clean preamp... and then into a 1/8 mini adapter and into Canon's lousy audio. Really, why, when there are solutions under $300 that will get 100% of the quality that your mics/cables/pres/mixers can deliver? Heck, get a $200 USB XLR interface and record right to your laptop. 2 channels of 48k/24 bit audio can be handled by some pretty old PCs or macs (and many cameras just record at 16 bits).

And keep in mind that noise reduction plugins are removing more than just noise - they can work wonders but they should really be for when you, your gear, or your plans screwed up - they shouldn't be thought of as a normal part of your production chain. They do kill some valuable content you may not miss in a 30-track pop song but you will in the line of dialogue that's the climax of your film. Really, I love DSLRs... but not their audio.
 
Heck, get a $200 USB XLR interface and record right to your laptop. 2 channels of 48k/24 bit audio can be handled by some pretty old PCs or macs (and many cameras just record at 16 bits).

I just got a small HP laptop as a carry along. Pretty fast, plays H-264 files right from the camera smooth. What do I need to use it as an external audio recorder? Sounds like an interesting solution. I have one good Sony wired lav and looking for a shotgun.
 
Check out sweetwater.com or musician's friend; there are dozens of audio interfaces with dual XLRs, many with phantom power, phase reverse, etc, headphone outs and level controls. Apogee (known for studio-grade preamps and converters) makes a really pristine model for about $450, but there's a lot in the $100-$200 range.

Some of the manufacturers like Mackie, Alesis, etc supply basic multitrack recording software with them, but most are ASIO/Core Audio plug & play that would work with most any shareware or commercial recording software (Audacity, etc, or Garage Band). There's several new players in the affordable multitrack software market, so play with some things and see what suits your workflow.

To do narrative or documentary work with laptop audio software, you'd want software that's easy to use with good metering, and something that allows you to develop a workflow based on "takes", where someone managing the recording on-set could quickly name takes based on scene number or slate info. I know there's purpose-built laptop software but it's in the $500-$1k range as I recall.

Adapting multitrack software designed for musicians may not be the most direct & recommended workflow, but there's a lot of software out there that pushes ease of use with really nice audio quality - the idea to make it easy for musicians vs. engineers could be a good fit for a budget filmmaker as well. Your primary goal should be having a friend/crew member you can rely on to manage recording and organizing on-set audio who would become second-nature with whatever process you design. If you're smart enough to understand a camera and editing, you should be able to devise something that would give you very professional audio quality in a way that's quickly accessible for your editing workflow.

Bad audio is just murder, even for the most beautiful footage. Go rent "The Sweet Hereafter" and listen to that movie - the vocal capture is amazing and was very obviously designed to support the themes of the film, it's the best example I can think of where just dialogue recording in many scenes was as well planned as the visuals. We think of serious audio in terms of "effects", but capturing the breath & nuance of a great voice is like music and I feel it's a really effective way to support the emotional content of a scene.
 
@Michael Carter - I think we know all this. I just thought it might be helpful to put the audio under the closest scrutiny I could - a 5.1 dolby mixing room - for some kind of definitive word on recording audio on the 60D. And unsurprisingly, it's not very good..
 
@Michael Carter - I think we know all this. I just thought it might be helpful to put the audio under the closest scrutiny I could - a 5.1 dolby mixing room - for some kind of definitive word on recording audio on the 60D. And unsurprisingly, it's not very good..

Thanks, & not trying to be pissy (as my kids say). But we see a lot of threads about "best mixers for DSLRs", etc. Having audio capture on-board is priceless for synching sound, and it's great if you're not generating on-set audio at all, say if you want audible notes or info on your takes or synch reference for a music video. But people (maybe people just getting their feet wet with all this) are recording shorts with in-cam audio and jumping through a lot of hoops to get sound in (check all the "defeat AGC with 1-channel white noise" posts here) and ending up frustrated & disappointed.

Getting very good audio can be done cheaply, and often using gear you already have (say a laptop or an older video cam with XLR or RCA in, or even minis feeding decent preamps). I've used my DVX for solely recording audio before - high-end mixers and field recorders are great, but there are workarounds.
 
I was all for the 60d audio when it came out but after looking into all the options and problems I realized I was much better off sticking with my 7d and Zoom H4n.

The deal breaker was poor pre's on the 60d and the lack of headphone jack. Something taught in audio years ago, always monitor what you are recording on. So even though you can use things like the juiced link to monitor audio you will still not be hearing it at the end of the audio chain which is risky. With clients in the room I wouldn't trust it.

The H4n always sounds great.
 
We really are in a "golden age" of affordable audio capture - compare the specs and features for a cheap zoom to a the pricey analog magnetic-tape Nagras that so many films were made on back in the day.

When I'm at a music store and see the rows and rows of 5 to 15 watt all-tube guitar amps with killer tone, from $175 - $500 dollars, I'm like "where was this stuff when I was a kid????" (I digress, but I picked up a $399 Egnater that makes the thousands I spent on gigging guitar amps over the years a painful memory, that thing is tone nirvana) - Rode mics, ADK mics, Oktavas, Zoom recorders, laptop interfaces - getting amazing audio is really down to user ability, not budget these days. And the software to deal with the audio, to tweak, mix and edit? The affordable tools we have now is amazing.

Gotta go, my son wants "on-set audio gear" for christmas, we're going to peruse the B&H & Sweetwater catalogs over lunch... MUCH cooler than shopping for video games!!!
 
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