5D/7D comparison

[ROCKMORE]

Well then maybe a DSLR isn't the right tool for the job.

The DSLR produces great images. They just are not set up completely for motion picture & sound production work out of the box. Even when you add an external audio recorder, mixer and base plug in XLR mics, Caprock filters, HD monitor, extra batteries, memory cards etc., it's probably still under $5 grand. That is a great deal for such mind blowing images that are very close to film in the first generation of cameras.
After all what we are trying to compete with is a RED ONE level image at 15% of the price and it's pretty close already.

My point about the audio is just to design your work flow to go from point A to point B retaining 100% of the quality, in the most direct path possible. Just because it's free to sit and work on you computer doesn't mean it doesn't cost you anything. Your time is worth everything.

 

[andrew00]

At the same time, being forced to develop different solutions can give you improvements.

For example, I got my 5D b/c I like the 35mm/dof adapter 'look' - the organic image, shallow dof, control of lenses etc. I also shoot handheld a lot and needed an alternative to my Ex1/Letus combo, which was heavy, big, difficult and conspicuous.

The 5D solves my problems and give comparable image quality, however it comes at the cost of many of the Ex1's features. No slow mo for example - I was considering the 7D but went for the 5D in the end even knowing I'd get no slow mo (I wanted the full frame/wider frame and better low light capacity.)

But I miss the Ex1's high quality audio, this forces me to look to other areas of audio. I'm going to buy an Edirol R-44 as I need 4 channels simultaneous recording. I've already got a Zoom H4, so soon I'll have the Edirol for 2xlavs + a rode nt4 and can put the H4 on my 5d.

So in fact, I'm able to upgrade to more inputs and higher quality audio in the process. And on top of that I get the benefits of the 5D.

For me, therefore, whilst there are downsides to the 5D/7D, I see the positive not just in the form factor, but also in the new opportunities it opens up.

 

[ydgmdlu]

After all what we are trying to compete with is a RED ONE level image at 15% of the price and it's pretty close already.

My point about the audio is just to design your work flow to go from point A to point B retaining 100% of the quality, in the most direct path possible. Just because it's free to sit and work on you computer doesn't mean it doesn't cost you anything. Your time is worth everything.

The irony in mentioning the RED is that most serious RED productions record double-system sound. The RED One's audio capabilities have a very poor reputation, or so I've heard.

And don't forget that the RED workflow is far more difficult and intensive than anything with the DSLRs.

 

[Ian-T]

I think camcorders spoiled us with capturing everything all in one (video and audio). I'm in no way a pro videographer...but to me it's best to have sound separate from the video. You have more freedom and versatility with a separate audio system. You can make several sound bytes without having to record any more video (retakes, sound effects, ambient noise, etc.). It's like having a recording studio on the go. Plus a separate system like the Zoom H4N will have much much better quality especially since it's a dedicated device..

 

[ROCKMORE]

The irony in mentioning the RED is that most serious RED productions record double-system sound. The RED One's audio capabilities have a very poor reputation, or so I've heard.

And don't forget that the RED workflow is far more difficult and intensive than anything with the DSLRs.

That's all good news for DSLR users. The reality is that the 7D and 5D can produce results very close to the RED in the right hands, and it's only been a year or so since they first DSLR arrived.
Upgrades with individual components in your work system is also good. You can build a complete system with lenses, audio, monitors, etc. than just change out your camera body each new model while still being able to sell the old one for a percentage of your original investment back. Once your set up it is a smooth process to upgrade. Very efficient future prospect.

 

[Barry_Green]

The reality is that the 7D and 5D can produce results very close to the RED in the right hands

No it can't! Only in very limited circumstances can it compete. The 7D is 1/10 the price of a Red One for several very good reasons!

Why can't folks accept it for what it is, and instead try to think it's something 10x more than it actually is?

The Red One is not an F35, no matter how fervently Red One fans would want to think it is. And a 7D (or 5D or GH1) is not a Red One, no matter how many times someone shoots a limited interview setup and says "see, they're the same."

 

[ChipG]

Yea, I was snaked charmed by the shallow dof from these dslr's from the get go, only seeing results on vimeo in a little 5" screen. I do think they are great cams that allow you to get shots you couldn't get with a Red or real video cam. Mount them anywhere, throw one in your beach bag and go have fun, awesome cams for that! Perfect travel cams too. Even an ok b-cam for a Red for the unique angle shot.

 

[ROCKMORE]

No it can't! Only in very limited circumstances can it compete. The 7D is 1/10 the price of a Red One for several very good reasons!

Why can't folks accept it for what it is, and instead try to think it's something 10x more than it actually is?

The Red One is not an F35, no matter how fervently Red One fans would want to think it is. And a 7D (or 5D or GH1) is not a Red One, no matter how many times someone shoots a limited interview setup and says "see, they're the same."

Sorry Barry, got carried away. Let me soften that claim. "Closer than anything else out there, if you only have 2 grand, but still can impress."
I have to say though, with thousands TV channels and billions of broadcast dollars spent on the highest level of equipment already in place, some of the best looking images out there today are from little indy guys with DSLRs.

Don't forget the old saying "The hand is quicker than the eye" If you don't even know there is a trick, how ya gonna spot it.

ChipG may have the best summed it all up, "snaked charmed"

 

[doondoon]

Actually, don't "forget" about anything. I just shot a week's worth of run-and-gun shooting, and relied heavily on the 7D's on-board audio capabilities. I used a Sennheiser MKE400 jacked right into the 7D, and everything sounds more than adequate.

I wouldn't (and didn't) lean on the 7D for mission-critical interviews and wild sound, but in the right circumstances, the 7D is more than up to the task.

If you're shooting a 30-second commercial and aren't shooting a lot of footage, a Zoom (or other separate sound recorder) is handy. If you're shooting tens (or hundreds) of hours of footage, I think the 7D audio is perfectly fine.

Although I'm sure that the 7D/5D's audio sounds decent, it's not the same as recording directly to (for instance) a sound devices 702 with a Schoeps shotgun (in the hands of a capable sound person).

 

[doondoon]

So the 7D audio is all auto control into the camea? Does it have an output for headphones to monitor or check playback? What will the Magic Lantern hack do it it is installed?

I agree that recording externally is better but shooting a lot of footage with an external recorder will cost big time in post. What about a day of run and gun interviews in the streets. You may be spending more time syncing it together then shooting it. Also remember that you have to have to slate every time you start your camera and recorder not to mention keeping track of it all day.

What if there is a speed error and things start to drift apart. Even only one frame off in dialogue is off. The 5D shoots at 30fps, the 7D shoots at a variety of different rates. What does the external recorder shoot at, and which speed timeline do you drop them in to put all the pieces together? You need confidence there as well. You have to know what you're doing out there with your gear, but shi* happens and things do go wrong. Just like I can't believe this forum won't let me write the word shi*. This is the most classic example of "shi* happens I ever heard of.

Even if there is a good program for syncing the audio , it's still another task that has to be done over and over. Isn't there a good way to route the audio on to the cameras card through a mixer, and record on a second recorder at the same time to have the best of both worlds and zero disasters? 7D or 5D

check out plural eyes. It auto syncs using the audio waveform from the on camera mic and the high quality mic.

It sounded to good to be true when I first heard about it... and then I used it.
It really works. It's a plugin for FCP.

 

[Stephen Mick]

Although I'm sure that the 7D/5D has ok audio, it's not the same as recording directly to (for instance) a sound devices 702 with a Schoeps shotgun.

And I never said that it was. But in situations where you have to fly solo, and in the right environments, the 7D audio is perfectly usable, especially with a mic like the MKE400.

People completely dismiss the audio from the 7D and GH1, simply because of the AGC. And don't get me wrong, AGC sucks, and can bite you in the ass if you're not careful. But in those situations where taking a separate mixer/recorder isn't practical (or possible), the 7D can still deliver decent sound.

Just don't ever rely on the built-in microphone of the 7D or GH1.

 

[ydgmdlu]

check out plural eyes. It auto syncs using the audio waveform from the on camera mic and the high quality mic.

It sounded to good to be true when I first heard about it... and then I used it.
It really works. It's a plugin for FCP.

Yeah, with PluralEyes, I really don't see any reason to complain about recording double-system, except for maybe the minor inconvenience of managing two devices. Earlier, he said something about the trouble of keeping track of all of the sound clips, but if you're on a serious shoot, each take should be slated anyway.

 

[ROCKMORE]

Yeah, with PluralEyes, I really don't see any reason to complain about recording double-system, except for maybe the minor inconvenience of managing two devices. Earlier, he said something about the trouble of keeping track of all of the sound clips, but if you're on a serious shoot, each take should be slated anyway.

Sounds like the solution. What happens if you have additional clips on your audio recorder card or camera card. Does the software just skip them and find the correct clip?

 

[doondoon]

And I never said that it was. But in situations where you have to fly solo, and in the right environments, the 7D audio is perfectly usable, especially with a mic like the MKE400.

People completely dismiss the audio from the 7D and GH1, simply because of the AGC. And don't get me wrong, AGC sucks, and can bite you in the ass if you're not careful. But in those situations where taking a separate mixer/recorder isn't practical (or possible), the 7D can still deliver decent sound.

Just don't ever rely on the built-in microphone of the 7D or GH1.

I wasn't dismissing the audio all together but I can see where you might think I was based on my first post... I wrote "forget about it".
That comment was meant to be taken a bit more casually.

Obviously if you're shooting run and gun (and you don't have a sound person) then you're going to have to use the onboard audio.

We are just talking about two different situations here. My point is if you want the best sound there are some very easy and fairly inexpensive ways to get it (if you production budget allows for a sound person and equipment).

If I was shooting run and gun on the 5D then I wouldn't be worrying about the sound at all (I'd be worried about keeping things in focus ; )

 

[ROCKMORE]

I'm wasn't dismissing the audio all together but I can see where you might think I was based on my first post... I wrote "forget about it".
That comment was meant to be taken a bit more casually.

Obviously if you're shooting run and gun (and you don't have a sound person) then you're going to have to use the onboard audio.

We are just talking about two different situations here. My point is if you want the best sound there are some very easy and fairly inexpensive ways to get it (if you production budget allows for a sound person and equipment).

If I was shooting run and gun on the 5D then I wouldn't be worrying about the sound at all (I'd be worried about keeping things in focus ; )

All these new facilities for better work flow are what will make the DSLR the one to beat in a short time if not already. Just that fact that they are so affordable that you could have 2 or 3 of them set up on a set for additional angles to work with in post.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Sounds like the solution. What happens if you have additional clips on your audio recorder card or camera card. Does the software just skip them and find the correct clip?

No, it won't do that. But that's precisely why slating your takes is so important. If you maintain good slating practices, then you only need to hear a few seconds of each clip to know what's important and what's junk.

 

[yoclay]

No, it won't do that. But that's precisely why slating your takes is so important. If you maintain good slating practices, then you only need to hear a few seconds of each clip to know what's important and what's junk.

Just want to correct a few things. Forget using a slate. Pluraleyes WILL find the clips that match up, and skip the others. This is what it does, it matches waveforms from the audio. The rest will be on the timeline but all by themselves.

2nd. Do not buy the Beachtek! It doesn't produce audio much better that what it's supposed to be correcting! Look at the tests Jon Fairhurst did over in the audio section of Cinema5D. You are much better off using a pre-amp like the Juicedlink 231 with the Magic Lantern hack, and running a mike through it's xlr's if you want to record directly into the camera. Easy and sounds great.

Otherwise keep the pilot track on the 5D. Mount the H4N off the camera and use it as a mike. Sync with Pluraleyes after. No Magic Lantern needed. Of course you have to press 2 record buttons rather than one, but sound takes up so little memory that you could just keep it rolling anyway in a lot of situations. Pluraleyes will still match the video clips to the appropriates sections of the audio.

The only thing the 7D has going for it are decent framerates. 24/25p. That's it. This will come as a firmware update for the 5D in early 2010. Otherwise, the jello, the aliasing and all the hassles remain the same for both cameras.

Except of course the 7D doesn't have focal lengths that remain 1:1, nor does it have Magic Lantern yet. Which means you can't use the pre-amp or get rid of the AGC right now. Nor does it have peaking for focus assist or levels to see where your sound is at. And of course at 1600 ASA or accidently underexposed by a stop you will see a difference...

So which would you choose? I think the answer is really kind of obvious upon reflection, don't you?

 

[Stephen Mick]

The only thing the 7D has going for it are decent framerates. 24/25p. That's it. This will come as a firmware update for the 5D in early 2010.

So which would you choose? I think the answer is really kind of obvious upon reflection, don't you?

As far as I understand, the 5D will offer 24p only. The 7D offers 30p, 24p and (720) 60p, making it a far more versatile camera for my needs (and many others).

So yes, the choice is/was easy… 7D.

 

[yoclay]

The 5D has/will have: 30p, 24/25p and we still don't know about 720@60p. It may well have this too.

So besides better low light behavior and 1:1 focal distances the 5D has with ML:
* Peaking
* Custom cropmarks bitmap file
* Live histogram while recording
* Time remaining estimate indicator
* Automated focus pulls!
* Focus stacking
* HDR exposure bracketing
* Lens data (hyperfocal distance, DOF, etc)
* Audio monitoring can be turned off during clip review
* Internal mic can be used
* Output audio volume control

+ HDMI OUT without the letterbox for greenscreen, blackmagic, etc > next up in ML 1.7

But I guess the 7D is fine too, if you like that long lens kind of commercial look.:happy:

Just having a bit of fun here, no flame wars please!:bath:

 

[ydgmdlu]

Just want to correct a few things. Forget using a slate. Pluraleyes WILL find the clips that match up, and skip the others. This is what it does, it matches waveforms from the audio. The rest will be on the timeline but all by themselves.

Brilliant. Thanks.

2nd. Do not buy the Beachtek! It doesn't produce audio much better that what it's supposed to be correcting!

I wouldn't buy the Beachtek precisely because I realized, from the beginning, what you're saying. It should be common sense. But ROCKMORE wanted an easy solution.

Otherwise, the jello, the aliasing and all the hassles remain the same for both cameras.

Not exactly.