4K will require hardware update

S.Blanchardon said:
OK, so now we know that in 2K RAW the Odyssey7Q records up to 240fps, 12 bit linear. Correct ?

Now that's just perfect for 2K RAW, it takes the maximum bit depth out from the camera, no need to pad it in a 16bit file. Nothing less nothing more. Clever.

Now I'm a bit nervous about the bit depth in 4K uncompressed and the 4K uncompressed thing in general :

- First, I hope it's 12 bit also. I would be disappointed if it's "only" 10 bit.

- Second, 4K uncompressed means that the 7Q takes the 4K RAW in (up to 30fps), "decompress it and debayer it (so we can't do it ourselves as with RAW) and wraps it uncompressed in a .dpx file. Correct ?

So it implies that we won't have the same latitude or the ability to manipulate the pictures as we can with a RAW file. Also correct ?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Whilst not i'm not Dan i'd imagine:

The range of the camera should be the same regardless of resolution. I'd imagine 4K to be 12bit too.

And yes it does sound like CD are debayering in the 7Q but the files being written (DPX) could/should be capable of holding the whole range of those 12 bits. So whilst not RAW, the full latitude can be contained. It very much depends on which flavour of DPX, you can have 16 bit but you can also have 10 bit log.

I think you'd get the same end results (near as) from this solution to the sony RAW solution. Except that you won't be able to choose how you debayer your footage.

cheers
Paul
 
Dan/Mike,
exactly what i was asking...thanx.
So, in theory, then, a LUT can be developed to record in an S-Log mapping when debayering is applied. Effectively giving us 422, 12 bit, S-log into DNxHD or another popular codec?
I hope this question makes sense. I'm on the edge of my undestanding of raw recording and debayering.
 
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cuervo said:
Dan/Mike,
exactly what i was asking...thanx.
So, in theory, then, a LUT can be developed to record in an S-Log mapping when debayering is applied. Effectively giving us 422, 12 bit, S-log into DNxHD or another popular codec?
I hope this question makes sense. I'm on the edge of my undestanding of raw recording and debayering.
Click to expand...

I am still a noob at this. What is debayering?

is this the answer I'm looking for -

The FS700 is a compressed file, and must be decoded to be viewed. Transcoding is taking an image stored in one codec and converting it to another codec or format. "I transcoded the FS700 to Apple ProRes" for instance.
Debayer or Demosaic refers to the process of converting a Bayer pattern color filter array image from a single sensor to a full RGB image. Because the R3D codec stores the compressed RAW sensor data in it's native Bayer pattern form, this is a process that must be done to see a full resolution full color image.
 
evilthought said:
This has been answered a zillion times. The hardware is designed for AVCHD 8-bit. It was like this when you bought the camera. This cannot be changed without replacing the internal hardwware.
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Evilthought, to me this sounds way more like Marketing speak than actual tech talk. With all the incredible un-authorized codec upgrades that have been done to Canon and the GH2, and the fact that we are PAYING Sony for a hardware upgrade, I don't think something like an upgrade to the internal codec would pose much of a challenge.

I think Tobyloc summed it up best: "They had 3 options, step up to competition, do what was right for customers with no negatives or put head in the sand and they seem to have chosen door number 3 when it should really have been 1."

I'm going to give the S-Log the benefit of the doubt for now (at least based on Freiheit's tests). I don't think Sony would release implement S-Log if they thought it was just going to fall flat on it's face.

I think what bums me out is that Sony is doing less than the minimum because we now have to pay additional money. I work in VFX and Motion Graphics TV spots and when a client comes to us, we give them 110% according to their budget. We always try our very best for the customer and I just don't see that happening from Sony, especially since their customer service with the FS700 has been atrocious -- stringing everyone along for a year with no clear road map and almost zero communication. The 4K and recorder solutions are just a bit too expensive for me and I just can't see investing that much more into the camera.

But hey, it's still a good camera and I have a shoot this Saturday where I am going to shoot my heart out. And hopefully the S-Log will be a bit better than everyone thinks :)
 
paulcurtis said:
Dan,

Thanks again for the communication, Sony should be very proud of the work you're doing.

The 8 bit restriction sounds like an enormous opportunity for CD to sell a solution to those needing 1080p 10bit output to, well, everybody.

Even when the cameras first came out (and the FS100) some within sony were calling it 10 bit output. When the 700 had HDSDI it was still cited as 10 bit. So unless it forms part of an official release i'd take the comments with a pinch of salt.

The Slog really does seem odd though. I'd suggest what sony should have allowed was the ability to create custom curves and add them to the camera. Actual full LUTs rather than picture profiles. That way you could tailor those 8 bits to be exactly what you want.

12 bit is what we expected previously. Again, Sony added a bit of confusion by saying that the AXR recorder would give 16 bit linear, but i think we all knew that wasn't going to be the case with the 700.

As ever, the proof is in seeing frames and DNG frames to see what the 12 bits look like. I mean the 5D is '14 bit' but i suspect that's more the ADC than the sensor and so actual range could be quite different. If the 12bit is derived from a real 14bit sensor then that bodes well. I've said before but the still jpegs out of the camera are very nice and hopefully an indicator of what we might expect.

Very much looking forward to sample DNGs and sequences!

cheers
Paul
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Dear Paul,

Thank you very much for your comments.

We are very happy that we will be able to offer a HD 10-Bit solution, at up to 60 fps.

Later, we may be able to offer a HD 12-Bit solution also but this will have to wait for the other codec.

Of course our 2K Raw is 12-Bit Linear and that is going well.

The other day we posted a Magenta tinted image, but that is all cleared up now, and our team reports that the images are looking very good.

We will be showing this at Cine Gear Expo one week from today.

Today is the last day to register for free admission. (Actually one has until May 25, at 10 am PDT).

http://www.cinegearexpo.com/category/register

We want to show some good images, as opposed to just shooting out our window, towards Pike's Peak.

To obtain a good 12-Bit output, one generally uses an Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) with a resolution of 14 Bits. This helps make the image output cleaner.

Our team is working very hard to get this ready to show next Friday.

Thank you again for the very nice words about our team's work!

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
freshTEA said:
I understand and respect in regard of your position Dan & Mike. I dont think most people intentionally are trying to be rude about the costs and I think most of us understands that it takes time and effort from your guys to make all of this happen, and above all we are grateful for the opportunity. But at the same time most people who have the fs700 are the ones that cant afford the higher end cameras, If they were they would prob just sell fs700 and and step up to next big thing instead of buying new expensive & external gear. Because of this, owners of the fs700 feel frustrated when the prices flies away, enough to make you wonder if it be more of a profit in buying a whole new camera. That's why most of us (I think) are looking decent a solution, for a compressed format instead of raw as its just not practical for most of us, but to what price? The raw option is a great option when needed, thus comes the renting option which is really great. Your dealing with enthusiasts and indie-filmmakers here, thus comes the emotional attachment :D

I also think that you have a really good shot at this since I think that a lot of fs700 owners will feel disappointed and left out. Thats when you come riding in on a white horse (or black if preferred) saving us. Have in mind that if the horse is to tall we wont be able to reach you, thus we are short people so if you want to save us please have that in mind when choosing your horse. The end

As nosy as I am I have to ask this :D

"In other news:
Our Chief Engineer came up with another idea, concerning the FS700 and Odyssey7Q that we are very excited about.
This involves a method to get even higher quality out of the FS700."

Is this regarding compressed or raw formats?

thanks for your time
Click to expand...

Dear freshTEA,

I really understand the financial strain of being an indie filmmaker.

My friend Rick Kelly and I started an indie filmmaker group back in 2004/2005. This has grown from AugustaFilm to Southeastern Filmmakers. Our group's members have made many films, some better than others, but all indie films.

We were discussing today how to come up with a lower price for supporting the FS700, so there is hope.

But, due to our team being so busy getting ready for Cine Gear Expo (preparing our FS700 firmware), we could not discuss it a great length today.

Our new "exciting" idea does involve creating compressed HD video, using the best possible images out of the FS700.

Our existing plans for 2K and 4K full uncompressed will also provide very high quality images, so there should be no worry there.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
S.Blanchardon said:
OK, so now we know that in 2K RAW the Odyssey7Q records up to 240fps, 12 bit linear. Correct ?

Now that's just perfect for 2K RAW, it takes the maximum bit depth out from the camera, no need to pad it in a 16bit file. Nothing less nothing more. Clever.

Now I'm a bit nervous about the bit depth in 4K uncompressed and the 4K uncompressed thing in general :

- First, I hope it's 12 bit also. I would be disappointed if it's "only" 10 bit.

- Second, 4K uncompressed means that the 7Q takes the 4K RAW in (up to 30fps), "decompress it and debayer it (so we can't do it ourselves as with RAW) and wraps it uncompressed in a .dpx file. Correct ?

So it implies that we won't have the same latitude or the ability to manipulate the pictures as we can with a RAW file. Also correct ?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Dear S.Blanchardon,

Yes, the Odyssey7Q, with our FS700 Option will record 2K, in 12-Bit Linear Raw, up to 240 fps.

The 4K Raw coming out of the FS700 is also 12-Bit Linear.

Thus, we can record this as 12-Bit Linear, full uncompressed.

Or, we might offer a menu option to record this as 10-Bit, full uncompressed, if desired.


The best, would be for us to be able to record 4K, 12-Bit Linear Raw, up to 60 fps.
But, we need Sony's permission to record in this format.

We do hope you understand that we are honored to be working this closely with Sony.


Yes, you are correct, it is certainly better to be able to record 4K Raw as opposed to 4K full uncompressed, as the deBayer can happen in post. The very best deBayers occur with very fast computers, plugged into essentially an unlimited amount of power, sometimes working much slower than real-time, using multiple passes.


Now, to go out on a limb here, subject to debate and correction by others, since we will be recording 4K 12-Bit Linear full uncompressed, there should be adequate leeway to extract the best quality out of the images, and be able to use the wide dynamic range of the FS700.

To state it differently, it is more important, for being about to use the wide dynamic range of the camera, that you are working with the full 12-Bit Linear, as opposed to it being in Raw.

To be clear, recording Raw is best, but for other reasons, not to preserve the wide dynamic range.

Recording the wide dynamic range, as recorded in 12-Bit Linear is important for the reasons stated above.

Let the debates begin! I am more than happy to be corrected if my comments are incorrect or misleading.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
tobyloc said:
haha, nice analogy, I agree 100%.

I have absolutely no idea why Sony would tell anyone they were bringing out Slog-2 with a paid "hardware" update and have that 10 bit compressed feature not be... 10 bit, just raw which has no use for log and the camera was raw 'ready' when it was sold. It's utterly baffling that no 10 bit out is coming despite H/W update and s-log, do they understand what log is?! If this turns out to be true, I will be really really dissapointed with Sony. They had 3 options, step up to competition, do what was right for customers with no negatives or put head in the sand and they seem to have chosen door number 3 when it should really have been 1. Based on how they listened to customers for the FS700, how it was genuinely innovative and updated the FS100 sensibly I really thought they'd carry on that trend. I still hope there's been some miscommunication somewhere!

Moving on to CD and the analogy, The FS700 is $8000 less than the F5 and it's features, codec and build quality attest to that. Any peripherals, when all added together with firmware update, recorder, licenses and SSDs, whether they include monitors or not are unlikely to be bought by FS700 owners if the price even gets to half of that difference IMHO. Because it would make more sense for us to sell our FS700s and buy an F5. Better dynamic range, internal 10 bit 4:4:4, build quality, more professional etc etc. If this 10 bit business turns out to be true I think CD does have an opportunity to chase the 10 bit compressed customers (which is probably the majority), ideally you should have been able to do that with the Odyssey 7 (not Q) but if it's the 7Q I would be very wary of the pricing for this minimum spec. Put it this way, if the Sony update was going to be 10 bit we would have been able to get HD 10 bit 4:2:2 for $800 total (Hyperdeck, SSD), or $2300 for 10 bit 4:2:2 overcrank (Odyssey7,H/W update,SSD). This was in the typical FS700 user's price range and would give a reasonable update on the 8 bit internal or external image we've currently been getting. If that figure turns into $4800 ($300 update, $2300 7Q, $700 SSD, $1500 FS700 support) just for compressed it's going to be a big ask for us I think and if the KiProQuad works with the FS700 it might become a cheaper option. It's a mental roadblock for us lower end users now, to buy a recorder to get compressed for way more than an entire raw recording camera from a competitor. Specs and direct comparisions are less important than the market and competing technology, the BMC Pocket camera has the power to record an HD 10 bit log prores file to an SD card in a tiny package for $1000 and they could fit a sensor in there too! FS700 users don't want to have to spend $12,300 to catch up (including camera).

Hope that doesn't sound too negative or directed at CD, I just want to try and represent the mental lines in the sand for prices we might have so Sony/CD can understand better the market value of some features in the average users mind.
Click to expand...


Dear Tobyloc,

Earlier this week, we thoroughly analyzed if we could offer our FS700 support in our lower cost Odyssey7, as opposed to requiring the Odyssey7Q.

We determined this was not possible. We cannot fit the required FS700 decompression model into our Odyssey7.

We are actively attempting to provide a solution for FS700 at a reasonable price.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
gene_can_sing said:
Evilthought, to me this sounds way more like Marketing speak than actual tech talk. With all the incredible un-authorized codec upgrades that have been done to Canon and the GH2, and the fact that we are PAYING Sony for a hardware upgrade, I don't think something like an upgrade to the internal codec would pose much of a challenge.:)
Click to expand...

No one has ever hacked GH2 or Canon 5D III to change internal video recording to 10-bit from 8-bit. The RAW hack on Canon is different. It records straight non-debayerd data to the card.
 
Hi there,

So far I couldn't find much new information in the recently released information from Sony about the specifics of the FS700 update, except for this:

"The upgrade also enhances other key creative controls; increasing the camera’s ISO range; from 320 ~ 20,000 to 320 ~ 64,000. It also adds S Log2 and 800% 709 gamma curves widely enhancing its exposure latitude HD capability."
on this page: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-NEXFS700UK/

"The NEX-FS700U will output a 4K RAW bitstream via a single 3G-SDI cable to the HXR-IFR5 interface, expected in June 2013. The interface docks to the AXS-R5 Access Memory System recorder, sold separately. (RAW output requires a camera firmware upgrade, free with the purchase of the HXR-IFR5.)"
on this page: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-h...s-assets-show-highend-FS700.shtml#/fs700t1_13

So if this information is correct the update will be free if you buy the Sony RAW recorder. No details yet on the pricing for the existing owners who want the update without buying this recorder or want to go for one of Convergent Design's recorders.

No word either on an updated version out of the box or a date when this would be available. There is a rumor spreading that many retailer's prices for the "not-updated" version are dropping until the end of june. This could mean that they are emptying there stocks for an updated version of the FS700. It does make sense and I see the same thing happening in my country, but it is still a rumour.

But two crucial bits of information remain unknown in their communication for now: How will the S-Log2 be implemented if it is not part of the RAW capability and is the HD-SDI output 8-bit or 10-bit after the update for HD recording.

Any new information is more than welcome if you can share it with us.

David.
 
Dan:
At my local store they say that they are expecting the odyssey 7q in june (This is in Sweden) at b&h the say they are expecting it in august.. Has it been delayed?
I I never really understood what kind of batteries it uses..? and how long it will run when recording and monitoring are there any specs on that?

------------------
You said:
"Dear Paul,

Thank you very much for your comments.

We are very happy that we will be able to offer a HD 10-Bit solution, at up to 60 fps.

Later, we may be able to offer a HD 12-Bit solution also but this will have to wait for the other codec."
-------------------------------

*That means that you know for sure that you will be able to offer true 10-bit in compressed codec such as DNxHD? not 8 bit in a 10 bit wrapper, right?

*HMMMMM... The only compressed codec that I know that comes with 12-bit is cineform!! Now that would be really nice, I dont know if cineform does 60p at 12-bit but I know the Chinese camera manufactures "Kineraw" uses cineform 12-bit in their camera at 24p-30p.

Interesting indeed!
 
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freshTEA said:
Dan:
At my local store they say that they are expecting the odyssey 7q in june (This is in Sweden) at b&h the say they are expecting it in august.. Has it been delayed?
I I never really understood what kind of batteries it uses..? and how long it will run when recording and monitoring are there any specs on that?

------------------
You said:
"Dear Paul,

Thank you very much for your comments.

We are very happy that we will be able to offer a HD 10-Bit solution, at up to 60 fps.

Later, we may be able to offer a HD 12-Bit solution also but this will have to wait for the other codec."
-------------------------------

*That means that you know for sure that you will be able to offer true 10-bit in compressed codec such as DNxHD? not 8 bit in a 10 bit wrapper, right?

*HMMMMM... The only compressed codec that I know that comes with 12-bit is cineform!! Now that would be really nice, I dont know if cineform does 60p at 12-bit but I know the Chinese camera manufactures "Kineraw" uses cineform 12-bit in their camera at 24p-30p.

Interesting indeed!
Click to expand...

Dear freshTEA,

I do not know why they are saying June. We originally said July, but a few weeks ago we decided to start saying August, just to give us some extra time, in case we needed it.

Of course, we want to ship these as soon as possible.


No, I was thinking of the other very popular codec that also has a 12-Bit version.

We are very confident that we will be able to offer true 10-Bit in a 10-Bit word, using Avid DNxHD 220x (which is 10-Bit), 220 is 8-Bit.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dear freshTea,

No problem at all.

We are all in this together, and there are so many options, flavors, and details!

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Btw Dan,
Is there any info regarding battery life and what kind of batteries the odysseys use? I dont see any pictures with batteries on the monitor.
 
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freshTEA said:
Btw Dan,
Is there any info regarding battery life and what kind of batteries the odysseys use? I dont see any pictures with batteries on the monitor.
Click to expand...

It says 10-34V input so my guess would be only extern power consumption like a 14,8v mount?!?!
 
Dan,

When will you have recording times for 2K RAW and 4K uncompressed? Also which recording options require two SSDs in the 7Q to record?

Thanks.
 
Dan, when will a downloadable operator's guide be available? I am interested in knowing what niceties will be lacking in your product, that people often assume they will be getting, as is the case with the BMCC, for instance the BMCC not telling you how much recording time you have left.
 
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