4K will require hardware update

Dear Friends,

We asked for, and have now received, official permission from Sony to discuss bit-depths.

1. As Mike Schell reported earlier today, the HD-SDI output is 8-Bits effective in the 10-Bit HD-SDI format.

Thus, we understand the disappointment in this as everyone would just love for this to be 10-Bits in the 10-Bit HD-SDI format.

(But, please see my comments below).

2. The upgraded Sony FS700, in 2K Raw outputs 12-Bits linear. This is very good.

To obtain 12-Bits linear in a camera, one needs the image sensor to be greater than 12-Bits, say 14-Bits, but for image quality reasons, (and maybe some other reasons), the output is 12-bits.

Thus, when the Odyssey7Q records from the Sony FS700, in 2K Raw, up to 240 fps, we will be recording in 12-bit linear, in the Cinema DNG format.

Our test recordings have been at 12-Bit Linear Raw, in the Cinema DNG format. We have been recording in this format for a few days now.

And we have been using commercially available software to work with these industry standard files with great success.


Now, I would like to talk about the future.

We understand the disappointment in the HD-SDI 8-Bit effective output.

We are planning, in the future, to take the 2K Raw 12-Bit output, decompress it, deBayer it, then record it compressed in Avid DNxHD (and another very popular codec later), in HD at the full 10-Bits.

To be clear, I am discussing what our plans are right now, and of course, this could change.

By in the future, I mean that we would like to have this ready by the time we start initial shipments of the Odyssey7Q.

If not, then we hope to have this ready via a firmware upgrade as soon as practical.

We certainly expect to be able to record this HD in 10-Bits up to 60 frames per second.

I do not know if we will be able to record higher than 60 frames per second at this time, so I am not announcing any compressed frame rate over 60 fps. Please note that I am specifically discussing 1080p60, not 1080i60 (and to be precise, this is 1080p59.94).

Thus, we would also be able to record 1080p50 at 10-Bits.

Please note that Avid DNxHD supports HD, at 10-Bits, in the 220x flavor, so this should be accepted by all Non-Linear Editors.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dan...
Interesting possibility. Sounds good to me! Would the 7Q have the processing power to add any debayer options....like exposure, CC, etc.?
 
thank you very much for your post, Dan! you're the man!

that 8bit issue is not so happy news but i need decent monitor and at least 1080P/60fps recorder anyway so soon i will be one happy man with you guys products!

does anyone want to buy my Samurai? :)
 
You are the Man, Dan. Thanks for taking so much time for the FS700 community.

Well, I'm at least liking what I saw with S-Log on Freiheit's last test. The C300 does C-Log and that's only 8 bit and it seems to be nice, but then again, that's 4:2:2.
 
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Hi Dan, its nice of you to let us know. Just thinking..
Convergent design have announced that the compressed formats will be included when buying one of your ssd-harddrives. Would this solution be included in that package? Or does this mean that fs700 users would have to pay for the "2k RAW" package in order to get 1080p60 avid or "the upcoming" codec in true 10-bit? And will it only be possible with 7q?
Do you think one ssd be enough for this procedure? (The amount of data that needs to be written)
 
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I guess I got a bit too excited, but hey, 10bit 1080p from 12 bit 2k raw ain't too bad! Just means I need to save up for when I need it. The camera can be stunning as it is, i don't think we should bash it just because we can't afford these new options... I know I can't! Just embrace it and keep making awesome **** with it - that's why we bought it in the first place right? Stay positive people, and stay creative :)
 
stefanvanjaarsveld said:
I guess I got a bit too excited, but hey, 10bit 1080p from 12 bit 2k raw ain't too bad! Just means I need to save up for when I need it. The camera can be stunning as it is, i don't think we should bash it just because we can't afford these new options... I know I can't! Just embrace it and keep making awesome s*%t with it - that's why we bought it in the first place right? Stay positive people, and stay creative :)
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more Stef.....but boy this time I am very going have to sell my wife and kid to get the R5 or the Odyssey 7Q.
 
Hi Dan,

Thank you for all the information on the bit-depth discussion. How brilliant your solution is as a workaround, I can't get my head around the fact that they would put S-Log2 on the FS700 while you don't need it for RAW recording, only for compressed recording. Everybody at Sony knows that you need at least 10 bit 422 and preferably even 12 bit 444 to get all the advantages of that. Why would they put it on there if you would have to record in 8-bit and later discover that it doesn't hold up in color correction like it should. I don't doubt the results you got in the lab, but I really question Sony why they would assure me it would be 10 bit and not 8 bit. I really would like to hear the details of the FS700 future from Sony themselves.

Strange thing is that all the cameras out of the XDCAM EX series are able to output 10 bit while most of them are in the same price range as the FS700. Even the F3 is almost within the same price range and it has S-Log. But Sony is going to stop the production of the F3 soon, leaving no large sensor, broadcast approved camera in their sub 12k $ range. If they are afraid to hurt their top line of cameras, then they should start listening to their customers. The FS100 did not hurt the sales of the F3. The F3 is a superb camera, but simply had the wrong internal codec. Why put an ENG codec in a cinema camera for pro use? This time they did it right with the F5 and F55. But does Sony need to protect their new F5 and F55 camera from the FS700? Not according to me. The F-series is for a completely different market and for different purposes. Those users will never buy a FS700 simply because it is not professional enough. Simple as that. So why stop the FS700 from becoming a hit for the second time amongst it's true market segment: the indi filmmakers and documentary shooters?

I know that it is technically possible to make it 10 bit and I would definitely pay extra for it if it was offered. For my job it's important to keep the camera light and compact, no big heavy things sticking out while running around, no obtrusive rig where I'm filming please. Bigger isn't always better. So a 10 bit output would give me a simple solution for a broadcast approved codec, not a ton of new problems to deal with. Life is simple if people want to keep it simple!

Greetings,

David
 
Daomay said:
Couldn't agree more Stef.....but boy this time I am very going have to sell my wife and kid to get the R5 or the Odyssey 7Q.
Click to expand...

Well i've heard that kids have a good rate at the moment.... :D

Kidding aside - I think freshTEA has brought up an interesting additional point there as well!

The way I see it, the 7Q is ready to process the 2K signal from the camera regardless of whether or not we've bought the "FS700 Codec Package". It just puts a watermark over the image until we purchase/rent the FS700 option. Correct? So theoretically, the 2K raw to 1080p 10bit compressed feature should be available to those who haven't purchased/rented the FS700 option, as the compressed codecs should be on the 7Q from day 1 (if you've purchased a CD SSD).

This would be massive in my opinion - definitely a system seller!

Regardless... thanks Dan for the information you've presented. Looking forward to seeing footage from this setup!
 
cuervo said:
Dan...
Interesting possibility. Sounds good to me! Would the 7Q have the processing power to add any debayer options....like exposure, CC, etc.?
Click to expand...

Dear Cuervo,

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is yes.

We already handle exposure index for the ARRIRAW, thus as the exposure index of the camera changes, we load it a different LUT.

Also, via a future firmware release, we expect to be able to add custom (user loadable) LUTs.

And we have to do Color Correction to make the Raw look right.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
freshTEA said:
Hi Dan, its nice of you to let us know. Just thinking..
Convergent design have announced that the compressed formats will be included when buying one of your ssd-harddrives. Would this solution be included in that package? Or does this mean that fs700 users would have to pay for the "2k RAW" package in order to get 1080p60 avid or "the upcoming" codec in true 10-bit? And will it only be possible with 7q?
Do you think one ssd be enough for this procedure? (The amount of data that needs to be written)
Click to expand...

Dear freshTEA,

We will be discussing, internally, what we can offer, and at what price. We have already started these discussions.

Of course, adding this 12-Bit 2K Raw to Avid DNxHD HD 10-Bit mode really adds some appeal to the FS700 + Odyssey7Q.

This will take a lot of effort on our part to get this accomplished, and it would be best if we could do it at price that many consider affordable.

Only one SSD will be required for this type of recording.


Now, the other very popular codec, in its best version, can add some additional capabilities which would be very desirable.

I just hope everyone understands, we try to make this options as reasonable as possible, but some options have a very limited market and take a lot of resources and talent to bring to market.

In other news:

Our Chief Engineer came up with another idea, concerning the FS700 and Odyssey7Q that we are very excited about.
This involves a method to get even higher quality out of the FS700.

Please forgive me, but I don't want to give out any real details at this time. We will announce the details later, but we feel that it will allow us to produce even higher quality HD footage from the FS700. We will need to implement it, then test it to prove our theory.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Yes, debayer and white balance, color matrix processing, etc. are all possible with the Odyssey7Q.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
eliomys said:
Hi Dan,

Thank you for all the information on the bit-depth discussion. How brilliant your solution is as a workaround, I can't get my head around the fact that they would put S-Log2 on the FS700 while you don't need it for RAW recording, only for compressed recording. Everybody at Sony knows that you need at least 10 bit 422 and preferably even 12 bit 444 to get all the advantages of that. Why would they put it on there if you would have to record in 8-bit and later discover that it doesn't hold up in color correction like it should. I don't doubt the results you got in the lab, but I really question Sony why they would assure me it would be 10 bit and not 8 bit. I really would like to hear the details of the FS700 future from Sony themselves.

Strange thing is that all the cameras out of the XDCAM EX series are able to output 10 bit while most of them are in the same price range as the FS700. Even the F3 is almost within the same price range and it has S-Log. But Sony is going to stop the production of the F3 soon, leaving no large sensor, broadcast approved camera in their sub 12k $ range. If they are afraid to hurt their top line of cameras, then they should start listening to their customers. The FS100 did not hurt the sales of the F3. The F3 is a superb camera, but simply had the wrong internal codec. Why put an ENG codec in a cinema camera for pro use? This time they did it right with the F5 and F55. But does Sony need to protect their new F5 and F55 camera from the FS700? Not according to me. The F-series is for a completely different market and for different purposes. Those users will never buy a FS700 simply because it is not professional enough. Simple as that. So why stop the FS700 from becoming a hit for the second time amongst it's true market segment: the indi filmmakers and documentary shooters?

I know that it is technically possible to make it 10 bit and I would definitely pay extra for it if it was offered. For my job it's important to keep the camera light and compact, no big heavy things sticking out while running around, no obtrusive rig where I'm filming please. Bigger isn't always better. So a 10 bit output would give me a simple solution for a broadcast approved codec, not a ton of new problems to deal with. Life is simple if people want to keep it simple!

Greetings,

David
Click to expand...

Dear David,

I also share your concerns that you stated in your first paragraph.

Our FS700 is an updated one. Also, our team really knows how to use the $40,000 HD-SDI analyzer.

So we have a dilemma.

While we are confident in the results we obtained, I also hope for a miracle.

But, of course, we are going to provide a great solution for recording HD at 10-Bit.

I understand your concerns about not wanting to add anything to a camera, but we pack a lot of features in a 7.7" OLED Monitor/Recorder that weighs about the same or less than most other 7" Monitors.

If we made it smaller, we would have to remove some recording options, such as the ability to record 2K Raw, 12-bit, at 240 fps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
gene_can_sing said:
Hey
It would be a pretty big let down if the upgrade allowed RAW (which most people would have a hard time working with on a real project plus it's super expensive), but everything else was kept at 8-Bit. I know that Eliomys mentioned that AVCHD 4:2:0 is a consumer codec, but at $8K, the FS700 is priced way beyond a consumer camera so we deserve at least a baseline / minimum pro internal codec with some slightly better recording options. Seems like the FS700 would have a pretty short shelf life if Sony just kept it so dumb down.
Click to expand...

This has been answered a zillion times. The hardware is designed for AVCHD 8-bit. It was like this when you bought the camera. This cannot be changed without replacing the internal hardwware.
 
Dan,

Thanks again for the communication, Sony should be very proud of the work you're doing.

The 8 bit restriction sounds like an enormous opportunity for CD to sell a solution to those needing 1080p 10bit output to, well, everybody.

Even when the cameras first came out (and the FS100) some within sony were calling it 10 bit output. When the 700 had HDSDI it was still cited as 10 bit. So unless it forms part of an official release i'd take the comments with a pinch of salt.

The Slog really does seem odd though. I'd suggest what sony should have allowed was the ability to create custom curves and add them to the camera. Actual full LUTs rather than picture profiles. That way you could tailor those 8 bits to be exactly what you want.

12 bit is what we expected previously. Again, Sony added a bit of confusion by saying that the AXR recorder would give 16 bit linear, but i think we all knew that wasn't going to be the case with the 700.

As ever, the proof is in seeing frames and DNG frames to see what the 12 bits look like. I mean the 5D is '14 bit' but i suspect that's more the ADC than the sensor and so actual range could be quite different. If the 12bit is derived from a real 14bit sensor then that bodes well. I've said before but the still jpegs out of the camera are very nice and hopefully an indicator of what we might expect.

Very much looking forward to sample DNGs and sequences!

cheers
Paul
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear freshTEA,

We will be discussing, internally, what we can offer, and at what price. We have already started these discussions.

Of course, adding this 12-Bit 2K Raw to Avid DNxHD HD 10-Bit mode really adds some appeal to the FS700 + Odyssey7Q.

This will take a lot of effort on our part to get this accomplished, and it would be best if we could do it at price that many consider affordable.

Only one SSD will be required for this type of recording.


Now, the other very popular codec, in its best version, can add some additional capabilities which would be very desirable.

I just hope everyone understands, we try to make this options as reasonable as possible, but some options have a very limited market and take a lot of resources and talent to bring to market.

In other news:

Our Chief Engineer came up with another idea, concerning the FS700 and Odyssey7Q that we are very excited about.
This involves a method to get even higher quality out of the FS700.

Please forgive me, but I don't want to give out any real details at this time. We will announce the details later, but we feel that it will allow us to produce even higher quality HD footage from the FS700. We will need to implement it, then test it to prove our theory.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

I understand and respect in regard of your position Dan & Mike. I dont think most people intentionally are trying to be rude about the costs and I think most of us understands that it takes time and effort from your guys to make all of this happen, and above all we are grateful for the opportunity. But at the same time most people who have the fs700 are the ones that cant afford the higher end cameras, If they were they would prob just sell fs700 and and step up to next big thing instead of buying new expensive & external gear. Because of this, owners of the fs700 feel frustrated when the prices flies away, enough to make you wonder if it be more of a profit in buying a whole new camera. That's why most of us (I think) are looking decent a solution, for a compressed format instead of raw as its just not practical for most of us, but to what price? The raw option is a great option when needed, thus comes the renting option which is really great. Your dealing with enthusiasts and indie-filmmakers here, thus comes the emotional attachment :D

I also think that you have a really good shot at this since I think that a lot of fs700 owners will feel disappointed and left out. Thats when you come riding in on a white horse (or black if preferred) saving us. Have in mind that if the horse is to tall we wont be able to reach you, thus we are short people so if you want to save us please have that in mind when choosing your horse. The end

As nosy as I am I have to ask this :D

"In other news:
Our Chief Engineer came up with another idea, concerning the FS700 and Odyssey7Q that we are very excited about.
This involves a method to get even higher quality out of the FS700."

Is this regarding compressed or raw formats?

thanks for your time
 
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evilthought said:
This has been answered a zillion times. The hardware is designed for AVCHD 8-bit. It was like this when you bought the camera. This cannot be changed without replacing the internal hardwware.
Click to expand...

I think that most where hoping that was a part of the "hardware" update.
 
OK, so now we know that in 2K RAW the Odyssey7Q records up to 240fps, 12 bit linear. Correct ?

Now that's just perfect for 2K RAW, it takes the maximum bit depth out from the camera, no need to pad it in a 16bit file. Nothing less nothing more. Clever.

Now I'm a bit nervous about the bit depth in 4K uncompressed and the 4K uncompressed thing in general :

- First, I hope it's 12 bit also. I would be disappointed if it's "only" 10 bit.

- Second, 4K uncompressed means that the 7Q takes the 4K RAW in (up to 30fps), "decompress it and debayer it (so we can't do it ourselves as with RAW) and wraps it uncompressed in a .dpx file. Correct ?

So it implies that we won't have the same latitude or the ability to manipulate the pictures as we can with a RAW file. Also correct ?

Thanks.
 
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freshTEA said:
I also think that you have a really good shot at this since I think that a lot of fs700 owners will feel disappointed and left out. Thats when you come riding on a white horse (or black if preferred) saving us. But if the horse is to tall we wont be able to reach you, thus we are short people so if you want to save us please have that in mind when choosing your horse. The end
Click to expand...


haha, nice analogy, I agree 100%.

I have absolutely no idea why Sony would tell anyone they were bringing out Slog-2 with a paid "hardware" update and have that 10 bit compressed feature not be... 10 bit, just raw which has no use for log and the camera was raw 'ready' when it was sold. It's utterly baffling that no 10 bit out is coming despite H/W update and s-log, do they understand what log is?! If this turns out to be true, I will be really really dissapointed with Sony. They had 3 options, step up to competition, do what was right for customers with no negatives or put head in the sand and they seem to have chosen door number 3 when it should really have been 1. Based on how they listened to customers for the FS700, how it was genuinely innovative and updated the FS100 sensibly I really thought they'd carry on that trend. I still hope there's been some miscommunication somewhere!

Moving on to CD and the analogy, The FS700 is $8000 less than the F5 and it's features, codec and build quality attest to that. Any peripherals, when all added together with firmware update, recorder, licenses and SSDs, whether they include monitors or not are unlikely to be bought by FS700 owners if the price even gets to half of that difference IMHO. Because it would make more sense for us to sell our FS700s and buy an F5. Better dynamic range, internal 10 bit 4:4:4, build quality, more professional etc etc. If this 10 bit business turns out to be true I think CD does have an opportunity to chase the 10 bit compressed customers (which is probably the majority), ideally you should have been able to do that with the Odyssey 7 (not Q) but if it's the 7Q I would be very wary of the pricing for this minimum spec. Put it this way, if the Sony update was going to be 10 bit we would have been able to get HD 10 bit 4:2:2 for $800 total (Hyperdeck, SSD), or $2300 for 10 bit 4:2:2 overcrank (Odyssey7,H/W update,SSD). This was in the typical FS700 user's price range and would give a reasonable update on the 8 bit internal or external image we've currently been getting. If that figure turns into $4800 ($300 update, $2300 7Q, $700 SSD, $1500 FS700 support) just for compressed it's going to be a big ask for us I think and if the KiProQuad works with the FS700 it might become a cheaper option. It's a mental roadblock for us lower end users now, to buy a recorder to get compressed for way more than an entire raw recording camera from a competitor. Specs and direct comparisions are less important than the market and competing technology, the BMC Pocket camera has the power to record an HD 10 bit log prores file to an SD card in a tiny package for $1000 and they could fit a sensor in there too! FS700 users don't want to have to spend $12,300 to catch up (including camera).

Hope that doesn't sound too negative or directed at CD, I just want to try and represent the mental lines in the sand for prices we might have so Sony/CD can understand better the market value of some features in the average users mind.
 
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