4K will require hardware update

NextWaveG said:
I'll gladly plop down a few grand to get 4K on a real video camera vs. dealing with the wide assortment of headaches with the BMCC.
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excuse my noobness but what kind of headaches are we talking about here? i probably missed something but i thought they finally came up with a usable battery solution and rolling shutter was supposed to be sorted out in the 4k version.

anyway, as a fellow fs700 owner, i was considering the bmcc route because i feel pretty misled by sony after all this news. i appreciate your optimism, but we paid a good chunk of change yet none of us actually own a "4k ready" camera that simply needs a firmware upgrade. hearing that the hardware side isn't in line, now i'm sure the sony legal team would absolutely crush a class action suit, but that sounds awful close to false advertising to me....
 
I kind of agree with you Epsom in being mislead, but I think it might be more with Sony not having any real idea of how to dow it from the start as opposed to purposely misleading. For me, 4K RAW is just too crazy for storage purposes. Can see using for anything but short projects.

I say CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT! I want a better internal codec as the payout! :cheesy:
 
gene_can_sing said:
I kind of agree with you Epsom in being mislead, but I think it might be more with Sony not having any real idea of how to dow it from the start as opposed to purposely misleading. For me, 4K RAW is just too crazy for storage purposes. Can see using for anything but short projects.

I say CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT! I want a better internal codec as the payout! :cheesy:
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Lets do it. I like this ideas very much. It said 4K but for #$%^ sake it has been almost a year now and we still have to wait another 3 months.
 
I genuinely don't understand all the backlash at Sony about 4K on the FS700. I bought a future-proof camera... not a future-now camera. I totally expected 4K to take awhile to come out. I'm impressed that it only took a year. A year ago the CD Odyssey7Q wouldn't have existed and Sony would more likely be looking to charge upwards of $3K for the upgrade. Now, the market is ready and pricing is a lot more competitive.
 
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Let the buyer beware. Sony promised a 4K ready camera in the future without much more information. If people want to fill in that lack of information with what they wish would be, that isn't Sony's fault. I bought this camera because i was impressed with the images that were being presented at the time and the insanely good quality of the 240 fps slow motion. And I am able to produce a very high quality final product as I expected.
 
Lets not be too hasty here, we don't actually know what the deal is yet.

Juan said they'd like to keep the cost down. It's obviously something they didn't plan for. And as well as enabling the 4K out there's also talk of firmware changes with other recording options. So it sounds like the upgrade itself may enable more options anyway.

I think we should just sit tight until we know what the actual offer is.

cheers
paul
 
NextWaveG said:
....I genuinely don't understand all the backlash at Sony about 4K on the FS700....
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Why is it?? :) I think it's simple: I just want the ALL prices goes DOWN!!! .. Look to Canon C-500 price: $26000 .. without recorder !!!! Do you think it's "NORMAL" ?? Sony FS-700 update - $12000 ... and $1800 for EVERY 512GB of media !!! $550 for CARD READER !!! Every company make they OWN ( very expensive ) media.... .. that's what you name "competitive" ?? ...what are you talking about here??
If you don't want to buy BMPC - it's your own business, but don't tell us about "wide assortment of headaches with the BMCC" . ... better ask users of Sony F3, who pay $3000 for two lines of simple code in the past ..
 
NextWaveG said:
I genuinely don't understand all the backlash at Sony about 4K on the FS700. I bought a future-proof camera... not a future-now camera. I totally expected 4K to take awhile to come out. I'm impressed that it only took a year. A year ago the CD Odyssey7Q wouldn't have existed and Sony would more likely be looking to charge upwards of $3K for the upgrade. Now, the market is ready and pricing is a lot more competitive.
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ok let me try to be more clear about my opinion on the subject. i personally love the camera's look and the slowmotion at it's current rez. and for me the ever changing time frame on 4k raw isn't really the issue either. my gripe is that i was sold something that had all the needed hardware to steam a 4k signal and would only require a downloadable firmware update to unlock.... and now we've all found out that this was in fact fluff. no offence but how is that difficult to understand?

i hope sony makes good on their promise but raul has kind of shot that down. as details come down the pipe the story keeps changing about what it is i've actually got in my camera bag... if the sony description said 1080p slowmo cam for $9,137.33 i doubt as many of us would've paid as much attention to it. and the price for that exciting high end 4k feature keeps changing/going up as the resale value of the camera and perceived value of the current format goes down.

so... whether it was sony's intention or not, as a small business owner who invested into this camera system, it's very frustrating being lied to like this. and then being expected to pay extra hardware fees for functions the camera was advertised as already having. this is not an issue of "buyer beware" as the description very clearly states as it is written on the b&h website where i bought it from. the description says "4k ready camera, later to be unlocked via firmware" we all read it and put stock in it. it did not say, buy it now and send it back to the factory and we'll eventually figure out a way to ad the guts for that feature we told you it already had. the bottom line is sony released clear info to all of us that is now found to be untrue about the fs700. i bought that camera so obviously i'm not happy...

The 3G/HD-SDI port will get expanded capability when a future firmware upgrade is available (not included). This will allow 4K output via the BNC as a data stream, which can be recorded to an optional Sony 4K recorder.
 
As of NAB, we don't know Sony's upgrade strategy for the FS-700.

The camera was marketed as a 4K-ready camera, not as a 4K camera. I know that at the time of its development, Sony was mulling a variety of means to get 4K from the FS-700, including a firmware download. Now we are beginning to get some few details on the upgrade path. And the camera will require a hardware upgrade. There is no information yet released on the nature of that upgrade or its price. The two solutions that will work as of now are the Sony decoder plus the AXS-5 recorder, and the ConvergentDesign OdesseyQ. I suspect we may see the KiPro Quad working with the FS-700 but this is pure speculation not based upon any information from either Sony or AJA.

As the great sage said "Everything is subject to change."

If you compare the cost of the the AXS-5 and its media to the SR-1 HDCAM SR recorder and its associated media, you would see the AXS-5 is a bargain. And the cards are barely more expensive than 128gb SxS Pro+ cards. Media for the OdesseyQ will not be cheap.

Comparisons with the Blackmagic Camera are not totally fair. Granted, at 4K, the BM Camera is a sweet deal. But it is a CCD sensor (hence global shutter in a low priced camera) and lacks most of the features of the FS-700, F-5 and F-55. It's to be expected. And the BM Camera will only shoot up to 30p at 3840x2160.

But my main point here is that we should not be speculating about FS-700 hardware upgrades until we know firm details from Sony.

Ned Soltz
 
Good words, Ned. It's with a rather jaundiced perspective that I read all these complainers. I remember when TV manufacturers first came out with "HD Ready" televisions. As it turned out, if you needed HD television with one of these TV's, you needed to purchase a box to go with the TV when HD finally hit the airwaves/cables. When a vendor uses the term "XYZ ready", I am always going to hold my expectations in abayance. At any rate, vendors, of which Sony is one, are always finding the right ill-defined words to sell their products. Caveat emptor reigns. AFAIK, anyone who bought an FS700 based on future performance, instead of right here and right now, probably deserves some level of disappointment. I'm extremely satisfied with my FS700 feeding 8-bit 422 data streams to my Pix240. I look forward to what a C-D device might offer. Especially if it's some subset of full 4G that goes easy on my hard drive requirements. And if I have to pay $$$$, to get it, oh well.
 
I am with you on everything you said except this.

nsoltz said:
The camera was marketed as a 4K-ready camera, not as a 4K camera. I know that at the time of its development, Sony was mulling a variety of means to get 4K from the FS-700, including a firmware download.
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I don't know of a single person on this board who was even remotely aware that bringing the FS700 to 4K readiness was going to require a hardware upgrade. It was more than implied that 4K was going to be firmware based and that all that I ever saw anyone discuss.

I am probably one of the few who didn't really buy the FS700 for it's 4K capabilities, so I consider myself somewhat impartial on this. If I were to have bought this camera based on how Sony marketed the camera as '4K ready'.......I would be pretty pissed off in finding out that the path to 4K now includes not having a camera for an unknown period of time while it is modified for what now is an unspecified cost. It leaves the impression to the consumer that they were duped and that isn't a good impression to leave with your customer base. I would be curious how many people expected the upgrade for free, I hope not many. I think if Sony manages to keep the cost low then all will be forgiven. If it's high, I believe it's going to create a lot of ill will from existing users as everyone will link the cost to the fact that the camera now requires a hardware upgrade which is not what they led many to believe.

I did find it odd that Juan, when interviewed, claimed that keeping costs low was a primary goal. I found it odd because large premium brands like Sony rarely sight cost as key concern in implementation (within reason). That leads me to believe that they recognize that requiring a hardware upgrade was not part of how they promoted the camera as '4K ready'. Let's hope Sony tries to do right by the people who supported the FS700 based on Sony's claim of '4K ready'.
 
@Daomay. I doubt anyone would hack it since it costs $8K. To brick a GH2 is one thing because it's $1K, but to brick an $8K FS700 is another thing.
 
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starcentral said:
The Odyssey will be driven by firmware updates and also software enabling temporary licenses to codecs that it will eventually support.

The BIG drawback to the Odyssey right now is the fact it will only include the AVID codec in MXF wrapper, and are not planning to support MOV wrapper. I asked them about it here on DVX and they said they were not keen or eager to worry about MOV.
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Dear Dennis,

I have been attempting to catch up from 10 days traveling.

Our plans for Avid DNxHD is to implement both ".mov" and ".mxf", your choice.

I may have stated here on DVXUser (I have not gone back and checked) that we were worried about ".mov" being the right choice. So, we decided to implement both.



And I will be repeating the following more than once to ensure that everyone understands.

For the FS700 one needs the Odyssey7Q (and not the Odyssey7) for 2K Raw at high speed, and for the 4K support.

If one is just wanting to record using a compressed codec, in HD, from the FS700,
then the Odyssey7 will be fine, but we recommend the Odyssey7Q
so that users will not be disappointed in the future when they want to use the new features of an updated FS700.

We recommend the Odyssey7Q for anyone that wants to get all of the modes out of the FS700.

The Odyssey7 is not upgradable to the Odyssey7Q. Please decide which one you want in advance.

The following section has been edited to make this clearer:

The following is to address the question as to whether the Odyssey7Q will require a hardware update in order to suppor the FS700, in addition to the Sony FS700 hardware/firmware upgrade.

If one has an Odyssey7Q, then we will support the FS700 with just an Odyssey7Q firmware update (and one will have to purchase, or rent, our FS700 option also), but there will not be an Odyssey7Q hardware upgrade required.

But it is our intention to have the FS700 option ready to go when the Odyssey7 starts shipping in July, thus it may not even involve a firmware update to our Odyssey7Q, as we may have it ready for our initial firmware release. (But there is lot of work to be done to achieve this goal, but it is a very high priority for us).

End of edited portion.



At NAB, we demonstated our many Focus Assist (Peaking) Modes, which were very well received.

And we demonstated our Waveform Monitor and Histogram.

We did not have our 1-1 Pixel Mode integrated into our master code, thus we did not demonstrate it, and the same applies to our two levels of Zebras.

One of our teams is now working on a nice Color Vectorscope. We expect to have this ready by July also.

In other words, by July, we expect to have all of the professional image analysis tools ready.

And we have some others that we have not publically announced yet, and I do not know if they will be ready by July or not.

We took suggestions from our booth attendees, and we are implementing them as soon as practical.

Here are just a couple of suggestions that we will implement:

1. We are making our touch screen icons larger (where necessary) to make it easier to use. Some were too small.

2. We will implement a great way to select the 1 to 1 Pixel Mode based on a industry professional's suggestion.

3. We are making our Image Analysis Tools easier to select and use.

4. We intend on changing our Wavefrom Monitor in Luma Only mode from yellow to white.

I am holding back on announcing some cool new features as suggested by some industry experts. We will announce them when we get closer to implementing them.
(I just do not want to announce features if there may be a delay for any reason.)


As stated in this thread, at the current time, based on our current plans, and based on our approvals from Sony, we will be recording 4K in full uncompressed not Raw.
This means that we are limited to 30 fps in 4K. Of course, we would like to change this in the future, but this is not a hint or a promise. I just like to be clear what our limitations are to prevent misunderstandings.

We will be recording 2K from the FS700, without needed the Sony Interface Unit, at up to 240 fps, in Raw, recording to Cinema DNG.

I hope this helps.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
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True North said:
I am with you on everything you said except this.



I don't know of a single person on this board who was even remotely aware that bringing the FS700 to 4K readiness was going to require a hardware upgrade. It was more than implied that 4K was going to be firmware based and that all that I ever saw anyone discuss.

I am probably one of the few who didn't really buy the FS700 for it's 4K capabilities, so I consider myself somewhat impartial on this. If I were to have bought this camera based on how Sony marketed the camera as '4K ready'.......I would be pretty pissed off in finding out that the path to 4K now includes not having a camera for an unknown period of time while it is modified for what now is an unspecified cost. It leaves the impression to the consumer that they were duped and that isn't a good impression to leave with your customer base. I would be curious how many people expected the upgrade for free, I hope not many. I think if Sony manages to keep the cost low then all will be forgiven. If it's high, I believe it's going to create a lot of ill will from existing users as everyone will link the cost to the fact that the camera now requires a hardware upgrade which is not what they led many to believe.

I did find it odd that Juan, when interviewed, claimed that keeping costs low was a primary goal. I found it odd because large premium brands like Sony rarely sight cost as key concern in implementation (within reason). That leads me to believe that they recognize that requiring a hardware upgrade was not part of how they promoted the camera as '4K ready'. Let's hope Sony tries to do right by the people who supported the FS700 based on Sony's claim of '4K ready'.
Click to expand...

Sony advertised the FS-700 as 4K ready, and it is not 4K ready if it requires a hardware upgrade. I wonder if they gave Convergent Design the go ahead simply because it allows Sony a legal technical out on their original marketing promise, because the Convergent Design solution doesn't require a hardware upgrade. Otherwise it is a good excuse for a class action lawsuit.
 
Sorry .. are you sure that "Convergent Design solution doesn't require a hardware upgrade" ?? how it's possible ?
 
This is what the description of the FS-700 still reads as on B&H, which isn't true if a hardware upgrade is required."The 3G/HD-SDI port will get expanded capability when a future firmware upgrade is available (not included). This will allow 4K output via the BNC as a data stream, which can be recorded to an optional Sony 4K recorder."The existence of the CD solution does not let Sony off the hook because they are saying a firmware update will allow 4K recording to the SONY RECORDER.
 
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As a totally impartial observer to all of this - the Sony literature/advertising on the FS700 stated this camera was a firmware upgrade away from 4K. If it is indeed required for the FS700 customer to purchase a hardware change to activate the 4K recording then it is simple - Sony lied, the same as if they said..."Yes the FS700 will do 4k in the future....when it is available for additional purchase and called the F55" No amount of spin changes that, whether it's a big deal to one person and not the other is irrelevant. FS700 buyers who saw the specs and sales sheet were sold a false bill of goods. It's called bait and switch.
Brochure states 4K is clearly a firmware upgrade away, as do all the dealers on their product listings for the FS700.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...wTQHIj169YIjtM77A&sig2=83YPs3ku2EwaQ50yUQDRxA
 
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