SergeSmArt
Well-known member
Maybe they decide to change 3G-SDI to NEW 6G-SDI.. and that IS "hardware level upgrade" he talking about ?
4K will require hardware update
- Thread starter evilthought
- Start date
Maybe they decide to change 3G-SDI to NEW 6G-SDI.. and that IS "hardware level upgrade" he talking about ?
starcentral
Veteran
Hopefully the all the new specs come out soon (if they've even changed) to stop all this speculation. Time will tell.
Is anyone looking at the FS700 seriously not tempted by the super 35mm version of the new BMC camera?
Guys, $16,500 for a franken-rigged FS700 vs $4000 for a BMC?
Is anyone looking at the FS700 seriously not tempted by the super 35mm version of the new BMC camera?
Guys, $16,500 for a franken-rigged FS700 vs $4000 for a BMC?
SergeSmArt
Well-known member
I would say: "$11 for a balance-rigged hardware for 16bit 4KRAW with my Hi-Speed FS700 plus $4000 BMPC" and I'm in proper production level with at list one back-up 4K camera" :2vrolijk_08:
paulcurtis
Veteran
The spec for SDI would be for a standardised video signal but Sony are compressing and packing their RAW in a non-standard format so the 12 bit is not important here. The end result is 16 bit linear but we're very much in the dark about what the sensor might actual be capable of. We've had tests, through the results of the 8 bit out, resulting in anywhere between 11 and 12.5 stops but the shadows and tops are crushed in the 8 bit data so it's difficult to pinpoint. The sensors range may top out at 12, the key is what is the noise like when it's RAW, how much real RAW latitude will we see. I think it's unlikely we'll see anything like the range from the F55 and F5.
To be honest if the Odyssey provides 12 bit at 2K then that's really very impressive, you're at better than F3 specs. I think i've been drinking the 4Kool-aid a bit.
There is however a resolution benefit to downsampling from 4K in post, there are many more ways to scale down and the end results would be a very very good 2K master.
I just want all this *now*
cheers
paul
starcentral
Veteran
Sorry but its the weakest chain in the link that matters and the internal ADC on the camera itself is 12-bit so that's all the camera will ever be. It doesn't matter if then later you pack it in 16-bit or 20-bit. Inside, its still only 12-bit. (Same as 10-bit HDMI => inside the container its 8-bit only.) 16-bit is just wasting 33% more space for no reason, they should have made the R5 12-bit/16-bit switchable or just made a separate 12-bit recorder.
I see a lot of confusion on the forums regarding data rates of RAW and most (including myself) would tent to think that because its RAW, it needs more data but in fact it is less!
ie. @ 24fps 4k uncompressed is only 2.3Gbps. Sony is doing around 3.6:1 compression on the R5 for the F5/F55 so bringing that down to around 650Mbps.
I see a lot of confusion on the forums regarding data rates of RAW and most (including myself) would tent to think that because its RAW, it needs more data but in fact it is less!
ie. @ 24fps 4k uncompressed is only 2.3Gbps. Sony is doing around 3.6:1 compression on the R5 for the F5/F55 so bringing that down to around 650Mbps.
paulcurtis
Veteran
The BMC still doesn't seem very handy for real work. Plus that 4K sensor has not been tested yet, it's latitude is supposed to be less than the first version and that S35 sensor size, doesn't look S35 to me, more like old school 35. I've seen some great results out of the BMC but i've also seen some horrendous aliasing and problems too. Whether this new camera has fixed those - i really don't know?
Whereas the images out of the 700 are very good when everything is working well. The stills out of the 700 are quite exceptional, and i hope that's an indication of what we'd see. I don't think the Sony route solution will make sense for most people but some of the info about slog upgrades and 3rd party recorders could mean a reasonable and worthwhile upgrade price. To be honest i find the size of the sony solution even more objectionable than the cost...
cheers
paul
starcentral
Veteran
True, I know I took leaps of faith on Sony by bailing out on my RED purchase to hold off and wait for F5/F55... but BMD (no offense to them as I love their products) true could turn out to be something less than stellar.
S.Blanchardon
Well-known member
One word : marketing.
OK, now back to bit depth, can you please correct me if I'm wrong but to sum up :
- Max bit depth (on the sensor side) on the FS700 is 12bits.
That's what we'll have after the firmware upgrade (hopefully for free) and (probably not for free) HARDWARE upgrade which, IMHO, really sucks/is a bad move from Sony who, from the beginning, has trolled us with the promised 4K on this camera.
- Sony's solution with interface "spreads" the 12bits onto 16bits (linear RAW) to be compatible with the R5 recorder. Nothing much will be gained with the 4 extra bits but at least it won't do any harm.
It's the most expensive (interface + R5 + AXS cards) but has the highest frame rates, 60fps in 4K (120fps 4 seconds burst) and 240fps continuous in 2K and is probably the solution which offers the highest image quality. Plus it gots S-Log2.
- Convergent Design's Solution (Odyssey 7Q) will have 240fps 2K CinemaDNG RAW (what about bit depth ? 12 ?) and 30fps 4K DPX (RAW ? Compressed RAW ?) of an unknown (for the moment) bit depth. I'm betting on 10bits as it looks like the standard for DPX files.
Presumably less expensive even though we don't know yet the price of the codec. Image quality on par in 2K and a bit less in 4K. Just my guess here looking at the respective specs, as we haven't see anything yet neither from Sony nor from CD.
Anyway, I'm a bit (completely ?) disapointed with Sony continuously misleading us and promising the 4K holy grail on a prosumer camera and going out with something adapted for the more expensive, higher range F5/F55. Looks like a politic in campaign making absurd promises or RED's promising a 3K for 3K$ Scarlet and finally going out with a downgraded EPIC.
That said, I'm sure to jump on either solutions... or sell my FS700 when it's successor come up to the market.
Cheers.
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To do what?
paulcurtis
Veteran
We don't know for sure what the bit depth is, it's been noted down as 14 bit before and most ADCs tend to process at 14 bit even if the sensor is capable of less. I'd say 12 is a pretty safe bet, maybe a little more.
It depends how much the 'upgrade' is
It more packs the 12 into 16 rather than spread it. We don't have official confirmation on the 30fps limit with the CD yet and they're still in development anyway.
DPX files can have much greater than 10bit. I would think it's a pretty safe bet that all CD solutions will cover the depth that the camera is outputting
I think that's a little unfair
The approach of offering a way into the sony high end eco system (that can be shared or rented) is sound as well as allowing third parties to produce solutions for more cost effective routes. There might be other 3rd parties in time too.
My only beef with the sony solution is how much of an ergonomic dog it is and the need for this IXR box with a screen on it. If the interface was a small plate with no screen and the recording controlled via the 700 menu system it would be much more attractive. I can't see me frankenrigging that setup on a rig that's already quite big and heavy.
cheers
paul
NextWaveG
Well-known member
After talking to a lot of people at NAB, I'm very happy with the future of my FS700. Sony is aware of the market and wants the FS700 to be a viable entry-level 4K camera. Convergent Design ( literally at NAB) got a big thumbs up from Sony for the Odyssey7Q which is on my shopping list. For those wanting a cost list:
FS700: $8,000
Firmware upgrade: > $500
Odyssey7Q: $2300
Codec: ~$1000
SSD: $400-$1000
Total to get S-Log HD & 4K: ~$12000
...for a camera that shoots 240fps 2K and can shoot to the web and space friendly AVCHD when you don't need something better. RED requires a whole module to do that.
FS700: $8,000
Firmware upgrade: > $500
Odyssey7Q: $2300
Codec: ~$1000
SSD: $400-$1000
Total to get S-Log HD & 4K: ~$12000
...for a camera that shoots 240fps 2K and can shoot to the web and space friendly AVCHD when you don't need something better. RED requires a whole module to do that.
To get the 4K sensor out of the camera without having to paid another $8000 for the camera. Just like the GH2.
AtticusLake
Well-known member
Does the codec include adding recording capability to the 7Q?
That's a spectacularly good price, if so. The Gemini 444 is $5000, and its codec for the comparable Canon RAW is $2500 = $7500 total.
SergeSmArt
Well-known member
LOL ... I was right again!
.. I wrote on April 11 : "I can think about that $500 difference in price in B&H ... so camera WITH upated hardware/firmware will go back to previous price: $8000 for body and $8600 with Kit lens " :laugh:evilthought
Well-known member
LOL ... I was right again!
Not for long, though. It will be down to $7000 to $6000 soon after
SergeSmArt
Well-known member
I hope the price for Sony HXR-IFR5, AXS-R5 and 512GB AXSM memory card will drop soon... or I can just get Black Magic 4K Production Camera for $4000
and forget all headache with Sony
jpardon
Active member
I hope the price for Sony HXR-IFR5, AXS-R5 and 512GB AXSM memory card will drop soon... or I can just get Black Magic 4K Production Camera for $4000
This is exactly what I've been thinking as well...Sony's 4K RAW solution for the FS-700 is cost-prohibitive, and CD's is quite nice but it is compressed...if I really want 4K RAW why not just get the Black Magic? Besides, 4K capability is something I'd love to have for personal projects, but I don't see my clients demanding it anytime soon.
Oh.. But since it will require a hardware update, I don't think it will be all that possible, at least not such that someone would endeavour to do it for free.
NextWaveG
Well-known member
I hope the price for Sony HXR-IFR5, AXS-R5 and 512GB AXSM memory card will drop soon... or I can just get Black Magic 4K Production Camera for $4000
I'll gladly plop down a few grand to get 4K on a real video camera vs. dealing with the wide assortment of headaches with the BMCC.