4k bmpcc

[Thomas Smet]

Well I'm glad we have so many manufacturing experts here with instant cost analysis break down here ;-). They had to design new camera body from scratch- do you think that was free? Do you think setting up manufacturing these new components is free? I'm actually in a unique position to assess manufacturing costs since I have actually overseen design and manufacturing of several products over last 20 years.
So yes- it would be more expensive- no doubt about it. Probably half of compatibly equipped UMP. Big? If you made the components removable it wouldn't have to be. Strip it for under 2 lbs payload for gimbal or drone- including the lens
But it would be a VIDEO camera that coud be used as such. With this image quality it would have no competition if the ergonomics were correct. I bet the engineering team had an epiphany at some point upon completing the design- "We were supposed to make a video camera? -oops....?"

Your background in manufacturing doesn't mean squat when it comes to building a camera and making decisions in an attempt to keep the size and weight down. If it did you would know that $1,300 for a camera like this is a steal. They are practically giving it away for free it is such an insane deal. It isn't a question of can a camera be produced with more for less. It is about what kind of value is this compared to DSLR cameras when it comes to getting ProRes and raw in a small package for a low cost that can also use low cost SSD media.

Sure it would be nice to have other features but just how selfish, greedy and entitled have we become to just keep wanting more in a $1,300 camera. I was on the fence about getting a Pocket 4k but your insanely ridiculous comment just caused me to pre order one. Thanks for that.

I also worked in the marketing department at a manufacturing company and sometimes the only way to make things more compact is to compromise on the capabilities. For example Apple computers and mobile phones. Sure the iPhone X could be 3x thicker and have a battery that runs for days but not everybody wants a masonry brick in their pocket and prefers the smaller form factor. Apple computers and other thin laptops no longer use modular ram and components because it allows the form factor to be smaller. The Pocket is the same way. The fact that they crammed a 5" full HD monitor on the back of a camera this thin is some pretty darn impressive engineering. where would you put the hinge to allow it to swing out? How much extra body would it need to hold the Lcd in place? People already feel the camera is getting a bit large. You want a larger form factor with not as many ergonomic compromises BMD has other options for you. If you are on a budget you need to take a good step backwards and rethink what that "on a budget" actually means. It is pretty much how it sounds.

 

[vcassel]

You can get a second hand URSA Mini 4K in my market for a steal. Check 'em out if you want those features. I have one and I highly recommend it. I'm also looking forward to the BMPCC 4K as is

 

[Gweilo66]

It's funny how so many cameras have tackled the articulating bit in small (and inexpensive) form factors..but still the apologists.
I applauded BMD for embracing it in more current designs..then here comes this.

 

[NorBro]

There has to be a reason...the most popular DSLRs and mirrorless cameras in the world (besides the GH5/S) - the Canon 5D Mark III/IV and 1DX Mark II, and Sony a7RII/III, a7SII and a9 - don't have one (the Sonys have a tilting one). Yet something like a Canon 80D does. I don't think Sony has any fully flipped out options (or maybe they do but can't think of any at this second).

 

[vcassel]

It's funny how so many cameras have tackled the articulating bit in small (and inexpensive) form factors..but still the apologists.
I applauded BMD for embracing it in more current designs..then here comes this.

I'm just having a hard time understanding why I should consider it a dealbreaker. I don't need an articulating screen. Sure, more bells and whistles are always nice, but an articulating screen isn't a must have for me. I don't know how or what you film so I don't know what you need. Everyone here works on different things in different ways. Different strokes for different folks. Doesn't make me an apologist. I just don't care if the screen flips out or not.

 

[Thomas Smet]

It's funny how so many cameras have tackled the articulating bit in small (and inexpensive) form factors..but still the apologists.
I applauded BMD for embracing it in more current designs..then here comes this.

Key word there. Small and inexpensive. Name another DSLR size camera that has a 5" articulating screen at full HD resolution. The Panasonic cameras are some of the rare exceptions and those LCDs are 3.5", hence much thinner and lighter to put on a hinge and pack against the back of a small body. They are also something like 720x480 or 960x540 or the latest GH5 1024x768 resolution. resolution which again makes them smaller and lighter panels. Nobody and I mean nobody has ever done a 5" articulating LCD screen with full HD resolution on a small compact camera.

None of us are making excuses. Some of us just have a better appreciation for what is possible in a camera and are not greedy and entitled and want everything for nothing. We refuse to sit here and whine and moan about how a camera isn't the holy grail perfect camera. We have more important things to worry about then stressing out over a hypothetical wishlist somebody had in a dream. It just isn't very constructive to keep going on and on about it. It doesn't have an articulating screen, deal with it or move on to something that does. You know all those other DSLR size cameras out there that do have a 5" full HD articulating LCD screen.

 

[cyvideo]

Putting aside all the discussion to and fro about the value of this camera and whether it should have a flip screen and other features at this price is a moot point. There will always be a segment of the market who want everything for nothing. Regardless it is coming out with some quite remarkable capability going by the published specs. On the specs I have some questions to ask.

I see references to windowed i.e. cropped HD up to 120p. Does this mean that ALL HD on this camera is windowed, cropped at 1920? So no down scale? Also if it is an HD 11mm diagonal crop for 1920 that means after Debayer it will have an HD resolution of around 1.6K. If it is an HD 11mm diagonal crop that is a massive crop with FF lenses and pretty severe on S35 glass and M4/3 as well.

Going on the basic specs of M4/3 which has a 2 x crop vs full frame does that mean that the HD crop on the BMPCC is a further 2.7 crop, like the GH5 for a total HD crop of some 5.4 x or thereabouts?.

Thoughts anyone?

Chris Young

 

[Thomas Smet]

Putting aside all the discussion to and fro about the value of this camera and whether it should have a flip screen and other features at this price is a moot point. There will always be a segment of the market who want everything for nothing. Regardless it is coming out with some quite remarkable capability going by the published specs. On the specs I have some questions to ask.

I see references to windowed i.e. cropped HD up to 120p. Does this mean that ALL HD on this camera is windowed, cropped at 1920? So no down scale? Also if it is an HD 11mm diagonal crop for 1920 that means after Debayer it will have an HD resolution of around 1.6K. If it is an HD 11mm diagonal crop that is a massive crop with FF lenses and pretty severe on S35 glass and M4/3 as well.

Going on the basic specs of M4/3 which has a 2 x crop vs full frame does that mean that the HD crop on the BMPCC is a further 2.7 crop, like the GH5 for a total HD crop of some 5.4 x or thereabouts?.

Thoughts anyone?

Chris Young

I could be wrong but I thought the crop was just for the slow motion. Yeah if the HD is cropped it would be like shooting with the ETC mode on the GH4 and GH5 cameras. ETC did a HD crop of the center of the sensor which provided very clean HD but a massive crop factor.

In some ways for 120p slow motion is a good thing however. The slow motion on most cameras in this class typically use a very crude form of down conversion. The slow motion on those cameras is cool but far from professional. On the Pocket if you can manage to get the camera back far enough and find a lens wide enough to get the shot it should be perfectly clean. That is just something you can't really do on the GH5 without sacrificing quality in some way even if a project is intended to be HD.

I really hope the HD up to 60p is scaled but I think that would only work for the ProRes formats. Scaling is image processing and you can't really scale a bayer sensor of raw data and get a smaller size and still have raw data. Typically you have to crop to get a smaller raw format. So if you want to shoot raw then it is very likely you may have to deal with the crop which is similar to most cinema raw cameras when somebody wants to shoot HD. They either have to let the camera do the processing and stick with ProRes or deal with a larger crop factor.

Cameras like the A7S and GH5 do all their processing in camera since they don't record raw so they can scale to your format of choice.

 

[Bern Caughey]

Grant stated that full frame HD will be possible, & downscaling in-camera will reduce artifacts. Also HD ProRes can be written to the same spec SD Cards used in the original Pocket, but think there are some Frame Rate limitations.

 

[kurth]

I'm just having a hard time understanding why I should consider it a dealbreaker. I don't need an articulating screen. Sure, more bells and whistles are always nice, but an articulating screen isn't a must have for me. I don't know how or what you film so I don't know what you need. Everyone here works on different things in different ways. Different strokes for different folks. Doesn't make me an apologist. I just don't care if the screen flips out or not.

I agree. Give me a great flip-up and detachable loupe and a small integrated gimbal.

 

[combatentropy]

greedy and entitled and want everything for nothing

If someone were complaining that it didn't shoot in 8K or 1,000 frames per second, that would be one thing. What I see (and myself think) is people pointing out a missed opportunity that would not have cost the manufacturer very much, if anything.

 

[Thomas Smet]

If someone were complaining that it didn't shoot in 8K or 1,000 frames per second, that would be one thing. What I see (and myself think) is people pointing out a missed opportunity that would not have cost the manufacturer very much, if anything.

How do you know it wouldn't cost them very much? Have you ever seen a DSLR size camera with an articulating 5" full HD monitor? There is a pretty good reason why we haven't seen a camera this size do it yet. You have absolutely no way of knowing what the cost impact would be on a camera that is already insanely low cost. I bought consumer HDV cameras that cost more than this thing.

As a Panasonic user myself I would also prefer an articulating screen but at the price point of this camera I can't really fault them for the decisions they made. The fact that they invested in using a large 5" full HD resolution LCD is already really darn impressive and completely unheard of with DSLR type cameras.

Look I get it. Some people really just want the perfect camera. We always get great new cameras that seem to be missing one or two things that keep them from being perfect. Its frustrating but it is what it is. Trust me chasing the perfect camera is like chasing the end of a rainbow. You will eventually drive yourself mad. Take it easy and enjoy the amazing tools we have today. I started out with VHS cameras and moved every step along the way to DV, DVCAM, Digital S, Digibeta, HDCAM, HDV and AVCHD. What we have is really impressive compared to where we started. For the cost you save on this camera you can buy a full HD 5.5" thin and light mobile phone size Feelworld monitor for $299. I know it isn't the same thing but it isn't as if we don't have options to get around this problem. How many people realistically need a monitor facing forward anyway? Vlogging? Why on the green earth are vloggers considering a raw camera? That just seems like trying to pound in a nail with a sledge hammer. There are easier and better tools to solve that task.

 

[AndreeOnline]

I had always assumed that on the day that someone manufactures a camera with a largish sensor suitable for a Speedbooster, a large mobile phone sized display with HD resolution, 4K resolution at 60 fps, 13 stops of DR and raw + ProRes codecs to cheap media (and even directly to SSDs) and some decent connectivity for $1295 that includes a professional video, coloring, sound and VFX package, that despite any potential shortcomings this camera might have, it would be a delight following forum threads about it since, surely, they would be full of sweet anticipation and unadulterated joy…

My bad.

 

[optitek]

I had always assumed that on the day that someone manufactures a camera with a largish sensor suitable for a Speedbooster, a large mobile phone sized display with HD resolution, 4K resolution at 60 fps, 13 stops of DR and raw + ProRes codecs to cheap media (and even directly to SSDs) and some decent connectivity for $1295 that includes a professional video, coloring, sound and VFX package, that despite any potential shortcomings this camera might have, it would be a delight following forum threads about it since, surely, they would be full of sweet anticipation and unadulterated joy…

My bad.

If you haven't noticed:
The phones have already replaced your dream camera. They can do most of what this camera can do, have better software, better auto focus, better screens, and are essentially free (not to mention, smaller, lighter with advantage in battery life). They did not and will not replace a video camera for a while at least. But go ahead, buy another clunky looking DSLR that is not really a DSLR. It is your money.... I'm not saying don't buy it, just saying that if BMC were smarter they could do much better with their resources....

 

[Danielvilliers]

It's funny how so many cameras have tackled the articulating bit in small (and inexpensive) form factors..but still the apologists.
I applauded BMD for embracing it in more current designs..then here comes this.

I just cannot understand this type of complaining, nothing approaches this camera for price performance and people are complaining about an articulating screen. You are already getting a 5 inch 1080p screen for $ 1300, something that you can actually focus with compared to the typical 3 inch display in DSLR and any camera at this price point. We are in 2018, you have a multitude of affordable external screen that you can buy. Would I have wanted a swivel screen yes, but I can buy the monitor below for 180 usd, but can you get 4k, 60 fps, 13 stop Raw/prores camera for USD 1300+ 180, at least you can add to this camera and still be much lower than a gh5 for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsKvqgQUe5A

 

[Danielvilliers]

If you haven't noticed:
The phones have already replaced your dream camera. They can do most of what this camera can do, have better software, better auto focus, better screens, and are essentially free (not to mention, smaller, lighter with advantage in battery life). They did not and will not replace a video camera for a while at least. But go ahead, buy another clunky looking DSLR that is not really a DSLR. It is your money.... I'm not saying don't buy it, just saying that if BMC were smarter they could do much better with their resources....

I guess you miss forum completely. I think most on here are either professional or advanced enthusiast , to compare this camera to phones... You should go on youtube and tell people that your smart phone is better than an alexa because you have 4k compared to 2.8k, I am sure you would look less stupid.

 

[Danielvilliers]

But you can get a lot of external screen for $200 or a small HD focus for $ 600 and it would still be very small and would still cost less than the gh5. While if you had to get a 4k raw camera you would need to go to 7k and much bigger and heavier cameras.

 

[Danielvilliers]

If someone were complaining that it didn't shoot in 8K or 1,000 frames per second, that would be one thing. What I see (and myself think) is people pointing out a missed opportunity that would not have cost the manufacturer very much, if anything.

But you can get a lot of external screen for $200 or a small HD focus for $ 600 and it would still be very small and would still cost less than the gh5. While if you had to get a 4k raw camera you would need to go to 7k and much bigger and heavier cameras.

 

[cyvideo]

Grant stated that full frame HD will be possible

Thanks Tom, Bern for the heads up. Was becoming more curious after seeing this on DPReviews site "...and windowed HD (a native 1080 crop) at up to 120 fps..."

"The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K is built around a Four Thirds sensor with dual native ISO and a native DCI 4K (4096x2160) resolution, and will record DCI 4K at 60 fps and windowed HD (a native 1080 crop) at up to 120 fps in either 10-bit ProRes or 12-bit Raw formats. Various internal recording media are supported including standard SD cards, UHS-II cards, and CFast 2.0 cards."

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4355020405/blackmagic-design-announces-pocket-cinema-camera-4k

It would be great if it is full frame HD.

Chris Young

 

[optitek]

I guess you miss forum completely. I think most on here are either professional or advanced enthusiast , to compare this camera to phones... You should go on youtube and tell people that your smart phone is better than an alexa because you have 4k compared to 2.8k, I am sure you would look less stupid.

It's still surprising how little imagination some "creatives" have....