C200: $1,000 Price Drop.....C500MKII coming soon?
- Thread starter chris f
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chris f
Veteran
Will you sell your c200s Chris?
I may or may not have already done the math on what a 2-year Canon financing monthly payment might be per month.....
Probably not though.
My hope has always been to sell my C200 and get whatever comes out next and keep my C200B as my gimble/B-Cam, but I think i'd have to seriously weigh some pros and cons and cost vs. return scenarios before potentially pulling the trigger. Currently I don't see the C500MKII making me any additional money per month, but definitely costing me more per month, so it seems more like an internal desire for higher quality capture and a small bet that having a proper broadcast spec'd camera again would be able to get on set as a rental more often than my C200s.
My C200B has two payments left before it comes off the financing books so who knows....
rob norton
Veteran
Maybe Eric can buy cameras for the whole forum? I’m running my c200 into the ground!
Stills2HDConvert
Well-known member
I think the C500MKII is going to be a big GAS hog.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I'm trying to take a break from camera purchases to save up to buy a house. This one looks nice for a single guy.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2472-Mccullough-Rd-Hampton-GA-30228/14897871_zpid/?
Oh wait, this isn't the housing forum. Yes, cameras. Uhm, a 4K Alexa Mini is on my radar for a purchase in perhaps a couple years from now. Feeling pretty good with what I've got now. A C500 Mark II would be kind of a joke in terms of naming; "Please buy our follow up to our last failure!" I'm content with Canon coming up with nothing in the near future so I don't need to replace my C300s, just as long as they can stay current with the competition, which I feel they still are. The good news is the C300 Mark I is still not fully outdated so even if/when a Mark III comes out hopefully the Mark II would be viable for a few years after that.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2472-Mccullough-Rd-Hampton-GA-30228/14897871_zpid/?
Oh wait, this isn't the housing forum. Yes, cameras. Uhm, a 4K Alexa Mini is on my radar for a purchase in perhaps a couple years from now. Feeling pretty good with what I've got now. A C500 Mark II would be kind of a joke in terms of naming; "Please buy our follow up to our last failure!" I'm content with Canon coming up with nothing in the near future so I don't need to replace my C300s, just as long as they can stay current with the competition, which I feel they still are. The good news is the C300 Mark I is still not fully outdated so even if/when a Mark III comes out hopefully the Mark II would be viable for a few years after that.
Panasonic will have a 6K camera for about $4,000 while Canon will (allegedly) charge $20,000 for theirs?
It'd make a lot more sense for Canon to lower C200 to $5,000, release C300 MKIII with 6K for $10,000 and then top their lineup with C500 MKII with 8K. Or, it's possible they will make C700 EL (Extra Large) with 8K. Which again will be left on store shelves.
It seems Canon's trump cards are dependability and workflow, as they're not getting much traction on the ultra high end where image quality is the king. Now, pair up a 6K C300 MKII R-mount with a 28-70 F2 and DPAF and you got a pretty decent combo. PL niche is where they're not going places.
Unlike Mobius. Long gone and forgotten.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I couldn't get a studio apt. in NYC for anything close to that low.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Georgia real estate. That house where I live would be about 1.5 million. Anywhere near the city in NY, what, 2-3 million? It must be nice to live in a place where real estate is actually priced what it's worth, instead of some ridiculous, aspirational price because of some stupid location.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Wow, that's insane.
NorBro
Major Contributor
You're starting to bundle all of these cameras together too much...
The Panasonic S1H is a stills camera from a photo division, and although it's great for the video prosumers it's not thought about in the cinema world decision-making.
Maybe it should be, but it won't be yet...because if they played the paper spec game the EVA1 should be on clearance.
In Canon's mind (IMO), they would have the first internal 6K relatively "affordable" sub-$20K camera among their Japanese competitors, and would price accordingly (usually higher than the competition as we know).
If this latest Canon Rumors story is true it looks like Canon might be admitting the C700FF is dead. This rumor says the C500 MKII will record 5.9K internally using the same full frame sensor as the C700FF which requires a Codex to record 5.9K. The C700FF only record 10-bit 4K internally so it seems like a C500 MKII that records 5.9K internally would make the existing C700FF mostly irrelevant. As others have mentioned Canon might have an 8K C700FF MKII lined up for eventual release as their new flagship.
I'm very curious about what internal RAW options the C500 MKII will have. Given that the C200 has CRL, I would be stunned to see this camera released without internal RAW. If they do include internal RAW I wonder if they will continue with CRL or move to ProRes RAW. CRL seems to be a fantastic codec in the C200 but the C500 MKII has twice the resolution so I wonder if they might have to update the codec since the current version has a fixed data rate of 1Gbs. The last thing Canon needs is pixel peepers posting screenshots that compare the C500 MKII's image unfavorably to that of the C200. I would personally prefer a move to ProRes RAW but it would also be cool see a higher data rate and presumably more version of CRL. It would also help Canon differentiate the camera from the C200.
This camera is out of my price range for purchase but depending on IQ and features I could see renting it for a project. It would definitely be better than shooting on an iPhone.
I'm very curious about what internal RAW options the C500 MKII will have. Given that the C200 has CRL, I would be stunned to see this camera released without internal RAW. If they do include internal RAW I wonder if they will continue with CRL or move to ProRes RAW. CRL seems to be a fantastic codec in the C200 but the C500 MKII has twice the resolution so I wonder if they might have to update the codec since the current version has a fixed data rate of 1Gbs. The last thing Canon needs is pixel peepers posting screenshots that compare the C500 MKII's image unfavorably to that of the C200. I would personally prefer a move to ProRes RAW but it would also be cool see a higher data rate and presumably more version of CRL. It would also help Canon differentiate the camera from the C200.
This camera is out of my price range for purchase but depending on IQ and features I could see renting it for a project. It would definitely be better than shooting on an iPhone.
It's no longer important which division was responsible for which victory.
If Panasonic can deliver a quality 6K for $4,000 (add an external recorder on top of that, if you must), then all the other competitors must respond in kind. They won't be able to get away charging $10,000 for 4K. There's no value in it. Thus, Canon is faced with three options - introduce a camera with similar features for a similar price; leave the current and very aging C300 MKII in place and watch consumers flock to other cameras; or quit manufacturing C300 MKII without finding a suitable substitute. And watch consumers flock to other cameras.
Which move would you take?
Which move should Canon take?
When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Oh, I totally understand and I have been preaching for years, but the industry is not yet where you're imagining it to be or would like it to be (all of us would).
Prices are still "high" and there is no Japanese 4K cinema camera for less than $5,000 (besides the "old" FS5 I/II and the newly discounted stripped-down C200B).
A 6K video stills hybrid will not change that. Although it helps, it doesn't exactly work that way because if that were the case then cinema camera prices would have drastically dropped 4-5 years ago when mirrorless' started taking over.
Only major disruptions like the FS7 in 2014 will completely change everything. It has to be a cinema camera...like a new $5,000 FS7III.
Stills cameras will not directly affect the pricing of these Japanese cinema cameras.
Prices are still "high" and there is no Japanese 4K cinema camera for less than $5,000 (besides the "old" FS5 I/II and the newly discounted stripped-down C200B).
A 6K video stills hybrid will not change that. Although it helps, it doesn't exactly work that way because if that were the case then cinema camera prices would have drastically dropped 4-5 years ago when mirrorless' started taking over.
Only major disruptions like the FS7 in 2014 will completely change everything. It has to be a cinema camera...like a new $5,000 FS7III.
Stills cameras will not directly affect the pricing of these Japanese cinema cameras.
The fact that S1H can also shoot stills is not relevant to its abilities as a video camera. If it can deliver exceptional image with auto-focus and superb low light performance, it will become a tangible option if Canon leaves a huge gap under 6K. You can call it camera-in-the-box that requires some rigging but it's still a camera.
This doesn't mean that C500 MKII, or whatever it's called, can't be a versatile tool in its class. C700 FF with Codex runs $40,000 as a package, so a $20,000 version puts it in contention against the Reds, Varicam LT and even the Mini LF for someone more budget minded.
Bur, if $20,000 is Canon's entry to 6K, it will face some big time competition and one might see it going for $13,000'ish within a year.
This doesn't mean that C500 MKII, or whatever it's called, can't be a versatile tool in its class. C700 FF with Codex runs $40,000 as a package, so a $20,000 version puts it in contention against the Reds, Varicam LT and even the Mini LF for someone more budget minded.
Bur, if $20,000 is Canon's entry to 6K, it will face some big time competition and one might see it going for $13,000'ish within a year.
NorBro
Major Contributor
It will be a great option, but you're speaking like everyone wants 6K ASAP.
You are very caught up in paper specs (as I always tell you).
If you remove that extra resolution (only 24p, btw) from the camera then it is no different than a S1 besides its 10-bit 60p and some other things like the screen, some menu options, etc.
The S1 with its L-mount doesn't appear to be a great seller. Also - and I hate to say it (and this is me saying it who loves mirrorless cameras) - at some point you cannot show up to certain professional productions with a camera that looks like a photography system. Certain people/clients will not understand.
I'm not sure why you are so hyped about this particular model, lol.
IMO, it changes nothing.
You are very caught up in paper specs (as I always tell you).
If you remove that extra resolution (only 24p, btw) from the camera then it is no different than a S1 besides its 10-bit 60p and some other things like the screen, some menu options, etc.
The S1 with its L-mount doesn't appear to be a great seller. Also - and I hate to say it (and this is me saying it who loves mirrorless cameras) - at some point you cannot show up to certain professional productions with a camera that looks like a photography system. Certain people/clients will not understand.
I'm not sure why you are so hyped about this particular model, lol.
IMO, it changes nothing.
Jaime Valles
Veteran
Bingo. This was the main reason why I switched form shooting with GH4 cameras to C100 cameras. Even though I lost the ability to shoot 4K, I was able to secure more, larger clients because I looked the part. With the GH4, I was treated like an amateur with talent, regardless of the quality of the images.
If you're making images by yourself for your own personal projects, use whatever camera you like. But if you're trying to attract clients, you need access to the tools that not only deliver the results you need, but also convey a sense of professionalism and experience. A little mirrorless camera doesn't really do that, even if the footage from it is outstanding.*
*And, yes, there are exceptions where small cameras were used in giant-budget shoots, but they're exceptions, not the standard.
Except, of course, S1H is priced higher than C100.
So, in my profoundly inaccurate prediction forecast, someone will make a great looking short film with S1H and the lower budgeted productions will begin to drift over to it over C200. Naturally, it'd behoove Panasonic to fund such a short by hiring a well known cinematographer and so on.*
*It may happen in NYC/LA last but IMO it will.
Now, the reason for my excitement - and this can change with events - is me thinking that S1H is a seminal camera that combines the reliability of a major manufacturer, 6K, auto focus, low light and a price point that will force everyone else to adjust to it.
Side note - there are such cars as well. In the last year alone, Hyundai Veloster N, Toyota Supra, Genesis G70, Chevrolet Corvette made major statements that beat its competitors on value (performance per investment). The market then has to react or be ignored like Infiniti Q60.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
People who don't work on big sets often are not familiar with needs of a professional video camera, so they wrongly assume a DSLR that has similar or better image quality can be well suited for professional productions since it works on their own small productions. It's an easy mistake to make, simply from lack of experience. Sometimes they don't even think of basic things like, where is the Teredek, timecode box, and Lectrosonics going to be mounted on the camera without fussing with a cage, rods, etc., which can delay production? Don't need a Teredek on a one or two person shoot, but on a 20 and upwards person shoot you typically do. How is the 7" production monitor going to be mounted without making the camera very lopsided and unwieldy? Once you've built out the mess of a cage, just how sturdy is the whole shebang for say a running Steadicam shot? Are all those spare parts that weren't built into the camera (which are integrated into a pro camera or have enough real estate to easily attached to the camera) going to cause additional jitter on Steadicam? Can the rig be well balanced for shoulder mounting? Then of course there are the (seemingly) more obvious things like number of SDI ports (since they don't understand HDMI doesn't cut it), XLR inputs, built-in NDs, etc. Then it doesn't shoot ProRes natively, cause, oh, why does that matter? I edit S1H files just fine on my computer. Well, fine for you, but who knows if the editor on the big job will like those file types. Is the record button in an easy to reach place when shoulder mounted and rigged out? I couldn't stand having to keep taking the A7s II off my shoulder every time I wanted to press record when it was rigged out. Can the lens mount support a five pound lens without additional lens support? And the list goes on and on.
But we'll keep seeing it, people mistakenly thinking some new DSLR that shoots 8K RAW internally with an Arri sensor is going to replace an Arri Alexa which does a lowly 3.4K RAW but has all the professional features that are more important than specs.
I don't use Arri camera because they look professional, I use them because they're better than other cameras.
But we'll keep seeing it, people mistakenly thinking some new DSLR that shoots 8K RAW internally with an Arri sensor is going to replace an Arri Alexa which does a lowly 3.4K RAW but has all the professional features that are more important than specs.
I don't use Arri camera because they look professional, I use them because they're better than other cameras.
Oh yes, it's very nice. One of the main reasons that prompted me to move here. I don't even work in the high end film market that is prevalent to GA, but I do enjoy having a three bedroom house all to myself right now for dirt cheap rent.
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