Shooting in progressive
- Thread starter Paladin
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C Walker
Well-known member
thank you sir!
Okay, Just when I thought I was getting a handle on the whole 24pN vs 24pA thing, I get thrown another curve. Up to a few days ago, I was using Adobe Premiere Elements 1.0, which didn't care what I fed it: 60i, 30p, 24pN or 24pA, it didn't care. It would digest it, edit it and spit out a DVD, mpeg2, Quicktime or miniDV tape with equal clarity and smoothness of motion. The only thing was, it lacked a few tools that I wanted. So, I found a new, unopened copy of Premiere Elements 3.0 cheap and I bought it. I put it onto my computer and uninstalled 1.0.
After the discussion we had here, I went out and shot some test footage using 16:9 squeeze (as always) using the 2:3 pulldown (24pN). I came home, captured it onto my computer, AND IT SUCKED! I mean, it was jerky as hell and I got a message saying that frames were dropped during capture. I checked the "Help" file and followed the instructions to check the settings. Guess what? Elements 3.0 only has two ways of interpreting 24p footage. You can either input pure 24p with no pulldown and it will copy a progressive frame (AABBBCD) before interlacing to make it like 30p or it can interpret the 2:3:3:2 pulldown (24pA)! That's it! There is no provision for 2:3 (24pN) pulldown!
I went out and shot some more footage using 24pA, captured it and ran it through Elements 3.0. It went through without a hitch and played as smooth as silk. Go figure!
After the discussion we had here, I went out and shot some test footage using 16:9 squeeze (as always) using the 2:3 pulldown (24pN). I came home, captured it onto my computer, AND IT SUCKED! I mean, it was jerky as hell and I got a message saying that frames were dropped during capture. I checked the "Help" file and followed the instructions to check the settings. Guess what? Elements 3.0 only has two ways of interpreting 24p footage. You can either input pure 24p with no pulldown and it will copy a progressive frame (AABBBCD) before interlacing to make it like 30p or it can interpret the 2:3:3:2 pulldown (24pA)! That's it! There is no provision for 2:3 (24pN) pulldown!
I went out and shot some more footage using 24pA, captured it and ran it through Elements 3.0. It went through without a hitch and played as smooth as silk. Go figure!
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The only thing that could make 24p standard (I wouldn't call it "24pN"; that means something very different on the Panasonic HD cameras) do that is if you're feeding it into the program when it's expecting 24pA. If it's just expecting 60i (or 29.97), it shouldn't matter.
So, not having Elements 3.0 to test it with, my guess would be you're doing something with the footage where it's expecting 24pA -- such as capturing with "24p" settings, or putting the footage on a 24p timeline. If either of these things are options, it's probably expecting 24pA or AABBCD for the pulldown cadence, neither of which corresponds to 24p standard's 2:3 cadence. So, if it's removing or interpreting pulldown from the footage, it's doing it very incorrectly.
Some screen shots of the steps you took -- options at capture, options for the timeline -- would help a lot.
So, not having Elements 3.0 to test it with, my guess would be you're doing something with the footage where it's expecting 24pA -- such as capturing with "24p" settings, or putting the footage on a 24p timeline. If either of these things are options, it's probably expecting 24pA or AABBCD for the pulldown cadence, neither of which corresponds to 24p standard's 2:3 cadence. So, if it's removing or interpreting pulldown from the footage, it's doing it very incorrectly.
Some screen shots of the steps you took -- options at capture, options for the timeline -- would help a lot.
I don't have an HD camera. I have a DVX100B. And Elements 3.0 doesn't have a 24p timeline. Only interlaced 29.97. On the settings menu, it has only two options for interpreting 24p: ABBCD, which it makes into AABBBBCCDD for use on the interlaced 29.97 timeline, or 2:3:3:2 for use on the same timeline. 24pN doesn't work very well on it but 24pA works just fine and the DVD it produces is also just fine with no artifacts and no flicker. So, I guess my decision has been made for me, I just don't understand it.
I know you don't have an HD camera; I'm just saying, "24pN" means something very different in Panasonic nomenclature. It doesn't refer to standard pulldown.
Like I said, to address the issue, I'd need to see screen shots of where these choices are -- you shouldn't have to choose any kind of interpretation at all if you're just editing 24p standard footage as 29.97. If you're choosing interpretation, you shouldn't be.
Like I said, to address the issue, I'd need to see screen shots of where these choices are -- you shouldn't have to choose any kind of interpretation at all if you're just editing 24p standard footage as 29.97. If you're choosing interpretation, you shouldn't be.
The way it is set up, footage shot in 60i or 30p just automatically goes into the 29.97 timeline, of course. Looking at the settings menu in the properties box, anything shot in 24p is interpreted as I explained: The default setting is for "Interlaced 2:3:3:2" pulldown with the option for choosing the "Repeat Frame ABBCD" interpretation. You would think that the default setting would be for 3:2 but there is no menu option for 3:2. I have no idea how to get a screen shot of the settings screen to show you.
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Assuming you're on Windows, you can select the Elements window, press ctrl+alt+Prt Scrn, and then go into Paint and choose Paste. Then, crop if necessary and save as a JPEG. You can then use the Member Upload Center here to upload it, and it will automatically give you a link to post.
Oh. That's just for playback to an external monitor 60 Hz monitor (a TV) -- that wouldn't have anything to do with it.
Try recapturing a bit of your 24p standard stuff and see if it still does it. Also try 24p standard footage captured through the version of Elements which didn't give you problems. There may have just been a wonky capture or something.
Try recapturing a bit of your 24p standard stuff and see if it still does it. Also try 24p standard footage captured through the version of Elements which didn't give you problems. There may have just been a wonky capture or something.
Okay. I'm still a bit of a noob with the digital stuff. Until this past spring, I was doing all my stuff on an old Bell and Howell 70DR 16mm film camera and editing on a 4 platter table.
I'll shoot some more stuff in 24p tomorrow and try it again. But if Elements 3.0 can handle 24pA as well as it seems to, and output to DVD as well as it seems to, what would be the harm in using it?
I'll shoot some more stuff in 24p tomorrow and try it again. But if Elements 3.0 can handle 24pA as well as it seems to, and output to DVD as well as it seems to, what would be the harm in using it?
Well, there's no real "harm" except that the pulldown cadence is such that it can produce more of a stroby, jerky motion, especially with pans and zooms. That's because of the "3:3" part of "2:3:3:2" -- those 3s represent frames onscreen for 50% longer than the other frames, and they're back-to-back.
Okay, I opened up a new tape, loaded up the ol' DVX100B and went out to shoot some more test footage to compare the way Adobe Premiere Elements 3.0 handles 24p and 24pA.
As always, I shot in 16:9 squeeze mode.
I brought the stuff home and captured it onto the Elements 29.97 timeline and previewed it. Evidently, the last time I tried this, the 24p capture must have been glitchy because Elements handled both types exactly the same. No strobing, jerkiness or anything. Both were smooth and virtually flawless. The only difference was minor: The 24p footage had an artifiact or two and an occassional flicker. The 24pA had no artifacts and no flicker. (I have an old fashioned, interlaced CRT monitor.)
I then burned a couple of DVDs and compared them. In both cases, the motion of the images was smooth (normal, film-like motion) as were the pans. There was no strobing or jerkiness in either case. Just as it was on my computer monitor, the 24p-based DVD had a few artifacts and an occassional flicker. The 24pA-based DVD had no artifacts and no flicker (my TV is an interlaced SDTV).
Maybe I am just not as perceptive as others, but I honestly could not detect any strobing with either pulldown. Both looked an awful lot like the 16mm footage I used to shoot.
As always, I shot in 16:9 squeeze mode.
I brought the stuff home and captured it onto the Elements 29.97 timeline and previewed it. Evidently, the last time I tried this, the 24p capture must have been glitchy because Elements handled both types exactly the same. No strobing, jerkiness or anything. Both were smooth and virtually flawless. The only difference was minor: The 24p footage had an artifiact or two and an occassional flicker. The 24pA had no artifacts and no flicker. (I have an old fashioned, interlaced CRT monitor.)
I then burned a couple of DVDs and compared them. In both cases, the motion of the images was smooth (normal, film-like motion) as were the pans. There was no strobing or jerkiness in either case. Just as it was on my computer monitor, the 24p-based DVD had a few artifacts and an occassional flicker. The 24pA-based DVD had no artifacts and no flicker (my TV is an interlaced SDTV).
Maybe I am just not as perceptive as others, but I honestly could not detect any strobing with either pulldown. Both looked an awful lot like the 16mm footage I used to shoot.
Well, having worked with film, you're probably quite familiar with how you have to move the camera to minimize 24 fps strobe, so you probably minimized the risk. 
True. There are some necessary techniques that must be used to get good film images. I guess I've just done it for so long, I do it without thinking about it.
I wonder why 30fps never caught on in Hollywood? They made a few movies with that frame speed back in the 1950s but it didn't prove popular. If it had, it would've made things a bit easier for us digital shooters.
I wonder why 30fps never caught on in Hollywood? They made a few movies with that frame speed back in the 1950s but it didn't prove popular. If it had, it would've made things a bit easier for us digital shooters.
People just like the look of 24 fps. Much the chagrin of some . . .
A 2:3 pulldown is the playback standard, used since the 1950s for showing a 24 fps film on 60 Hz TV. If you're creating a 29.97 file for a DVD, it's the only pulldown cadence you can use, yes, and the only one you'd want to use.
However, Hollywood DVDs are 24p DVDs; the movies are encoded as straight 24p, no fields, no interlacing. They have FLAGS which instruct the DVD player how to insert 2:3 pulldown on the fly when playing to a standard TV, but those interlaced fields are created by the DVD player; they're not encoded in the video on the DVD. Only the instructions are.
24p DVDs are better because they will show no interlace artifacts on a progressive screen. The 24p files also save space on the DVD.
However, Hollywood DVDs are 24p DVDs; the movies are encoded as straight 24p, no fields, no interlacing. They have FLAGS which instruct the DVD player how to insert 2:3 pulldown on the fly when playing to a standard TV, but those interlaced fields are created by the DVD player; they're not encoded in the video on the DVD. Only the instructions are.
24p DVDs are better because they will show no interlace artifacts on a progressive screen. The 24p files also save space on the DVD.
So, what about this scenario: I shoot in 24pA in order to have the raw footage with the 2:3:3:2 pulldown on tape. I then capture and edit on Adobe Premiere Elements 3.0. The way I understand it, the 2:3:3:2 pulldown will still be intact on the 29.97 timeline. I then export the edited result back to tape to have a copy with the 2:3:3:2 pulldown for future use when the day finally comes when I can get Premiere Pro. In the meantime, I can also export to DVD for immediate use.
Does this make sense or am I just whistling in the wind?
Does this make sense or am I just whistling in the wind?
Barry_Green
Moderator
You could do that but it only makes sense if you're diligent to cut on only 5-frame boundaries. Otherwise you'll mess up the cadence.
If you're going to be editing in Premiere Elements, I'd say just shoot 2:3, render out a 60i DVD, and be done with it. Worry about native 24P when you have an editor that supports it.
If you're going to be editing in Premiere Elements, I'd say just shoot 2:3, render out a 60i DVD, and be done with it. Worry about native 24P when you have an editor that supports it.