Shooting in progressive

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Paladin

Well-known member
Okay, so I've been researching as much as I can on the 24p vs 24pA subject. I keep reading that 24p is better for straight to DVD and that, while 24pA is better for filmout, it has more judder when sent to DVD. So, I did a little experiment and shot some stuff on 24p and followed that with some stuff on 24pA. I captured both into my Adobe Premiere Elements NLE on the same (29.97) timeline and burned a DVD. I honestly could not tell the slightest difference. Both in the timeline and on the DVD, the images and motion of both appeared identical and I could detect no judder at all, except what is normally associated with 24fps cinematography.

So what gives?
 
What you keep reading is wrong. 24P mode is most certainly not better for straight-to-DVD, and 24PA has nothing to do with filmout.

They have to do with how you're going to edit. If you can edit on a 24p timeline, you want 24pA - pure and simple, end of story. And you can render out a 24p file to DVD, and you should, and 24pA is best for that.

24P mode is for if your editor doesn't support true 24p editing. 24pA is for if your editor does support true 24p editing.

Any cadence issues are going to be a very minor difference.
 
Barry,
My NLE, Adobe Premiere Elements, does not support 24p editing. Everything is edited at 29.97 fps. The reason I'm asking about which progressive mode I should use, is that I am in pre-production of a feature-length, micro-budget horror flick I want to make. While the film is intended for release on DVD, I would like to retain the option of a filmout in the (unlikely) event a distributor wants to release it on film. I've read that 24pA retains the original framing better than 24p and is more efficiently reverse-telecined to film.

Premier Elements seems to reproduce both the same way in the timeline. That is, every fourth frame is repeated. Going frame by drame using either pulldown looks identical. At least it does to me.

So, given that you are considerably more knowledgeable about these things than I, which progressive mode do you suggest, give my circumstances?

Your advice is greatly appreciated.
 
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I'd pick up Premiere Pro, Paladin. It can handle 24p media, and will serve you much better for feature editing.

Shoot 24pA, edit in a 24p project, export out a 24p MPEG for DVD. Let the DVD player add the necessary pulldown, just like it does for Hollywood movies.
 
Paladin said:
I've read that 24pA retains the original framing better than 24p and is more efficiently reverse-telecined to film.
Click to expand...

No, that's wrong in many ways.

24p and 24pA are exactly the same except for one respect, and one only. Both are shot at 23.976 fps and scanned progressively, so both are true 24p. That one difference comes when they're recorded to tape. Because they're recorded in DV format, they must be recorded in a 60i stream -- that is, the video must be comprised of 60 interlace fields per second; it can't be 24 progressive frames. The ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY difference between 24p and 24pA is how the frames are made into fields and arranged in that 60i stream, and it's not that much of a difference.

Forget anything else you read about "framing" or "true 24p" or film or DVD or "better for television" or anything else -- that is the only difference.

The reason for the difference is that with 24pA, the fields are arranged so that it's easier to reconstruct the original 24p frames from the 60i field.

The choice between them, as Barry said, is simple -- it's about how you're going to edit, and nothing else. If you have to edit as 29.97, shoot 24p. If you are going to edit as 24p, and you should if you can, shoot 24pA.

(This does NOT mean that you can't edit 24pA as 29.97; you can. It only means that 24p is better for it because it's what it's meant for. It also doesn't mean you can't edit 24p as 24p; you can, if your NLE can remove the pulldown properly -- Premiere Pro can do this automatically.)

Your best option is to use an NLE which can edit 24p and shoot 24pA. You will have every possible delivery option -- DVD, film, video, whatever else -- still available to you. This is ideal. You should invest in doing this before you start your feature if you ever want it to go to film or to 24p DVD.

If you edit as 29.97, your options are more limited.

But again, to reiterate, the choice between 24p and 24pA is about how you're going to EDIT, and that's it.
 
I'd say that if you really want to release on DVD, and you want to preserve the option of doing a film transfer, you'd be doing yourself a big favor to upgrade your editor to one that can handle true 24P timelines. Otherwise you're going to have split frame issues throughout.
 
Premiere Pro is $800. Not an option for me at this time. For financial reasons, I am stuck with Premiere Elements. I have blown most of my savings on the DVX100B, lights and sound equipment.
 
Hey,

If you can't afford a copy see if a buddy of yours has a legite copy of Adobe Pro hanging around. If he does ask him if you can install it on your computer. Adobe's product license agreement states that:

"If you own, or are the primary user of a single-user Adobe product...you can also install and use the software on one secondary computer of the same platform at home or on a portable computer. However, you may not run the software simultaneously on both the primary and secondary computers."

Check out the license agreement below:

http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/index.html
 
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I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that Adobe intended the "secondary computer" to be the property of the software licensee, not a buddy, and that if a buddy wants to use Premiere Pro, he'll have to buy his own copy.
 
David Jimerson said:
That one difference comes when they're recorded to tape. Because they're recorded in DV format, they must be recorded in a 60i stream -- that is, the video must be comprised of 60 interlace fields per second; it can't be 24 progressive frames.
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Why is it they cant be recorded progressively?
Does that mean the camera is not true progressive, only semi prog?
 
The DVX100(A)(B) shoot true progressive. The problem comes from the fact that DV tape has to be recorded on in standard NTSC 60i, so the camera ads pulldown to convert 24fps progressive to interlaced 60i. There are two types of pulldown: the old standard of 3:2 (24pN) and the new, Panasonic 2:3:3:2 (24pA). Some NLEs can remove pulldown so that you can edit footage in true 24p. Unfortunately, mine doesn't and I have to edit in 60i with the pulldown intact.

What I've been trying to ascertain is this: If I shoot in 24pA and then edit in a 60i timeline, when I burn a DVD from the result, does the 2:3:3:2 pulldown remain intact or does the mpeg2 codec convert it to 3:2 when sending the data to a DVD?

I have burned a test DVD containing footage from both 24pN and 24pA and I honestly cannot tell even the slightest difference in the motion whether in the 60i timeline or on the (interlaced, SDTV) screen. I don't know if it is my imagimation or not, but the images from 24pA seem to be a bit better. I don't know how the motion or images would be on a progressive TV or if there would be any difference.

If the pulldown sent to the DVD remains intact, that is, if whatever pulldown added by the camera stays the same throught the process, then I think I would prefer to work in 24pA.

Does anybody know if the 2:3:3:2 pulldown is passed on to a DVD intact?
 
A DVD doesn't need any pulldown, it can play the pure 24p stream. So shoot 24pA, edit on a 24p timeline, render a 24p file, and you'll have the best pure 24p progressive-only, pulldown-free system possible.
 
As I said before, I do not have the capability to edit on a 24p timeline. I am working on Adobe Premiere Elements 3.0, which edits only on a 60i (29.97 fps) timeline. At the moment, I am financially unable to pay hundreds of dollars for a 24p caqpable NLE. I broke the bank, so to speak, to buy my DVX100B and Audio Technica AT8035 shotgun mike and other accessories. So, given that editing on a 24p timeline is not an option, the question still remains:

Does the 2:3:3:2 pulldown from the DVX100B remain intact all the way to the DVD or is it converted somewhere along the way?
 
If you're editing on a 60i timeline, the pulldown will stay intact in the footage. However, every cut you make has the potential for breaking the cadence. If you only ever cut on every 5th frame, you could guarantee the cadence would stay the same and the full timeline would be 2:3:3:2, but if you ever cut anywhere other than on a 5th-frame boundary you will break the cadence pattern.
 
Again, don't shoot with 2:3:3:2 pulldown if you're going to edit as 29.97. Shoot standard 2:3 pulldown.

If you're asking if you can make a DVD with 2:3:3:2 pulldown, then no, there's no such thing as 2:3:3:2 pulldown on a DVD-compliant 29.97 MPEG-2 file -- the pulldown scheme will be 2:3.

But that doesn't matter if you doing the edit as 29.97 -- you will, for the mathematical purposes of what you're doing, be working with 60i files and none of the software will be contemplating pulldown of any kind. So, for the actual field cadence in the footage, that depends, as Barry says, where you make the cuts. Chances are overwhelming that you're going to break the cadence.

This is another reason to shoot 24p standard and not 24pA if editing as 29.97. It's less of a problem if you break that cadence.
 
The important thing to remember is that 2:3:3:2 pulldown is optimized for EDITING -- that is, it's structured so it's easy to remove and restore the original 24p frame AS 24p. It is NOT intended to be a playback format, so you'd never WANT to make a DVD with that pulldown scheme even if you could.

Anything you want anyone to WATCH should have 2:3 pulldown, because that's what 2:3 pulldown is meant for.
 
Barry_Green said:
What you keep reading is wrong. 24P mode is most certainly not better for straight-to-DVD, and 24PA has nothing to do with filmout.

They have to do with how you're going to edit. If you can edit on a 24p timeline, you want 24pA - pure and simple, end of story. And you can render out a 24p file to DVD, and you should, and 24pA is best for that.

24P mode is for if your editor doesn't support true 24p editing. 24pA is for if your editor does support true 24p editing.

Any cadence issues are going to be a very minor difference.
Click to expand...

If I shoot in 24pA, what settings do I use in Final Cut Pro 6? Is there a specific workflow?
 
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