RED Digital Cinema anounces small camera

Snowleopard, I totally agree with your comment about "how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or actually seeing it."

Reminds me of Naomi Klein's book, "No Logo".

It's not about if their product is good/bad, nor if it the speculation is true or false. Just tired of hearing the same old company lines being spouted by people who have never used it. I've noticed that the term revolution seems to enter into many posts whenever the word Red is mentioned. There marketing campaign is very smart.
 
Well JVC is still making 720p cameras so that should tell you the established companies are moving pretty slow compared to RED.
 
I have not pre-ordered a RED, and doubt I'll ever buy one personally. However, the attacks here on RED's company is quite bizarre. The beef seems to be that they've been "talking for a long time without delivering the actual product", as if that by itself was somehow "bogus". The reasons seem to me extremely obvious: they took the approach that they'll create a camera based on extensive feedback from the potential users. Designing a camera - especially if the design is at all ambitious - takes quite a bit of time. So, if it takes, say, 3 years, what should they do? Keep quiet for 2 years and 11 months and only announce it 1 month before the product rolls out into the public? What they decided to do is to communicate with their potential users from very early on - and therefore it's natural that they'd be "talking for a long time without delivering the actual product"... that's how long it takes to deliver a camera from conception to execution! It's what every company does - the only difference being that RED has chosen to interact with users the entire time, while other companies perhaps do so only during the last stretch of the design process. Why is that a crime?

Strikes me that it's broadly in the interest of users to have the company interact with them extensively and at every stage, no? So why all the sniping? Unless you think that the product does not exist and RED intends to abscond with the money. However, they have actual working models (which could be seen and touched at NAB, and have been used by prominent DPs and directors), so it's not likely that the product doesn't exist. And the likelyhood of RED absconding with the funds is pretty low - they have a whole company behind them, why would they do this for chump change?

Critisizing a company is fine, but how about sensible criticizm, if you have one? Saying that they take pre-orders and that's just sleazy and wrong and immoral (?) marketing and unethical and whatever other bizarre accusations along these lines, well, that just doesn't make any sense. IMHO, of course.

OldCorpse: Not a likely RED user.©
 
IMHO - I think RED has exhibited marketing genious perhaps second only to Apple. They have lots and lots of people talking, many of whom are potential users or who might influence potential users. You can't beat that.

TVH
 
AloysiusK said:
Snowleopard, I totally agree with your comment about "how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or actually seeing it."

Reminds me of Naomi Klein's book, "No Logo".

It's not about if their product is good/bad, nor if it the speculation is true or false. Just tired of hearing the same old company lines being spouted by people who have never used it. I've noticed that the term revolution seems to enter into many posts whenever the word Red is mentioned. There marketing campaign is very smart.
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Thank you, at last a word of wisdom...
 
very true

but not only that, by RED choosing to "interact with users" and coming out with a camera that more accuratley reflects what the users want, the big companies will have to take notice (when they start loosing customers) to create similar products at competetive price points.

so the red will not only benefit red users, but future panasonic, sony, canon and jvc users as well!
 
js33 said:
Well JVC is still making 720p cameras so that should tell you the established companies are moving pretty slow compared to RED.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but JVC has cameras you can actually use and buy today... Red is actually not moving at all.
 
"However, the attacks here on RED's company is quite bizarre."

I think one of the main reason this is happening is balance. The main reason I find this marketing strategy to be so disturbing is there is no way to put to test claims RED is making until it is fully available to the consumer market. "The product has this and that", and it will wow you. You cannot really critique it, because you cannot use it yet.
This is where I think alot of the negative reactions come from, it is just the natural order balancing the mythical, bulletproof buzz(that has been building for years!).

"Critisizing a company is fine, but how about sensible criticizm, if you have one?"

How can you criticize something that you cannot test across a broad range of users?
No possibilities to do so. (In the meantime, that bulletproof buzz is growing and growing.)

"What they decided to do is to communicate with their potential users from very early on - and therefore it's natural that they'd be "talking for a long time without delivering the actual product"... that's how long it takes to deliver a camera from conception to execution!"

If you think that these intentions are purely for the benefit and goodwill of Joe Blow cameraman and have nothing to do with marketing, I don't know what to tell you. They are intertwined. One doesn't exist without the other. Joe Blow cameraman isn't being let into the top secret red studios to be a part of this creative process, because they are protecting the sanctity and exclusiveness of their commercial product.

Jim Jannard didn't make Oakley sunglasses the most buzzworthy name in sunglasses by accident. He knows how to get people excited about his product and he knows how to turn the consumer into his personal salesman.
 
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Wow I can't believe you guys are still moaning about this. Theres are gonna be the same people that are going to try to get their hands on one to shoot their next feature.

I just... don't... get it.
 
#234:

What? Is it so hard to believe they have a business strategy? I think it is effing brilliant.

Nobody is saying that there product doesn't have the possibility to be absolutely wonderful. Hell, it seems like you would be blessed to have one if it fell into your lap. I would probably freak out and have an anxiety attack over my excitement. (Shoot, there I go again!)

I guess it comes down to all those people screaming about how the revolution has begun. The sheer mass is hard to avoid. I cannot remember the lasst time a product came out that people would defend and exault till the cows come home years before it came out...talking to eachother on the internet all the time(sometimes everyday) about how exciting it is. Getting in a line, if you are lucky enough to have enough money, and waiting for the product. Then others telling others how they wish they we're in line too!

Sometimes consumer hysteria can leave a bad taste in your mouth, ya know?

Besides, if they would have introduced the product when it was actually ready to be sold then you wouldn't have to deal with hypocrites like me who are as addicted to consuming as much as the next person. I never said I was better, just irritated. And your right Kholi, I wish I could get my hands on one. But it ain't the point. The point is that some people get upset when consumer hysteria reveals itself with rabid dedication. Others don't mind so much. I, for whatever reason, mind.
 
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AloysiusK said:
#234:

What? Is it so hard to believe they have a business strategy? I think it is effing brilliant.

Nobody is saying that there product doesn't have the possibility to be absolutely wonderful. Hell, it seems like you would be blessed to have one if it fell into your lap. I would probably freak out and have an anxiety attack over my excitement. (Shoot, there I go again!)

I guess it comes down to all those people screaming about how the revolution has begun. The sheer mass is hard to avoid. I cannot remember the lasst time a product came out that people would defend and exault till the cows come home years before it came out...talking to eachother on the internet all the time(sometimes everyday) about how exciting it is. Getting in a line, if you are lucky enough to have enough money, and waiting for the product. Then others telling others how they wish they we're in line too!

Sometimes consumer hysteria can leave a bad taste in your mouth, ya know?

Besides, if they would have introduced the product when it was actually ready to be sold then you wouldn't have to deal with hypocrites like me who are as addicted to consuming as much as the next person. I never said I was better, just irritated. And your right Kholi, I wish I could get my hands on one. But it ain't the point. The point is that some people get upset when consumer hysteria reveals itself with rabid dedication. Others don't mind so much. I, for whatever reason, mind.
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I have to admit that I was won over early. But I've had the opportunity to see the results. I saw their 4K presentation in L.A. and now seen the short Peter Jackson created using prototype cameras. I could really give a **** what others think. I'm so happy to know I'm going to have one of these in my hands sometime in July that I can't f*cking believe it. Hopefully, it will arrive in time for my next project. (If not, I guess I'll be stuck shooting in film.)
 
"I could really give a shi* what others think."

I would feel the exact same way if I we're in your shoes. Cheers!
 
I don't get what this whole thread is about... RED said they were going to do something -- build a 4K camera that does digital cinematography the way it should be done, and deliver it at a really low price point.

That's what they did.

Why is there still an argument?

This happens with every new announcement -- there was a similar firestorm surrounding the DVX, and around the HVX, and the Red One. Yet every product came out and did exactly what they said it would.

Why not wait until some details (ANY details?) are announced before getting all worked up about the Red Mini? The only detail they announced at all, which I really had to push for, was in the form of "hey, we're making it, okay? So you pretty much know what to expect."

Red did what they said they'd do, when they said they'd do it, at the cost point they said it'd cost, and it looks exactly like they said it would. I really don't get what all the negative fuss is about.
 
I was leaning towards believing in the RED for sometime now, but after seeing that footage of Peter Jackson's at NAB I have to say I am a true believer. Seeing not only the RAW, but also the color corrected footage I must say that this is the first digitaly aquired footage I have ever seen that looks just like film. In fact I could say it looks better than film because there was no grain. This footage was absolutely fantastic. After seeing the footage my head was literally reeling for a while, and my brain kept repeating "Film is dead, Long Live RED!" over and over.
 
Barry_Green said:
I don't get what this whole thread is about... RED said they were going to do something -- build a 4K camera that does digital cinematography the way it should be done, and deliver it at a really low price point.

That's what they did.

Why is there still an argument?

This happens with every new announcement -- there was a similar firestorm surrounding the DVX, and around the HVX, and the Red One. Yet every product came out and did exactly what they said it would.

Why not wait until some details (ANY details?) are announced before getting all worked up about the Red Mini? The only detail they announced at all, which I really had to push for, was in the form of "hey, we're making it, okay? So you pretty much know what to expect."

Red did what they said they'd do, when they said they'd do it, at the cost point they said it'd cost, and it looks exactly like they said it would. I really don't get what all the negative fuss is about.
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Although the fuss is a bit all over the map some of it is justified.

Red has done everything you mentioned except one - they have not delivered. Which isn't to say that they can't or won't, but they haven't. So I'm guessing that much of the noise was skepticism about their ability to deliver a new camera when they haven't delivered on the promise of the first camera.

I believe this is more about managing expectations that development of the technology. Red was happy to seed forums like this with information to keep people spun up. That can really backfire if you show up to NAB with a block of wood and a lens the Way Panasonic did with the HVX. So its interesting that you compared the two.

Red mismanaged expectations the same way Panasonic did and there's no quantifying the opportunity costs associated with such bad marketing. There's little doubt they will sell all the cameras they have on order. Everyone associated with the development of this project will say what a great job they did, and they did. But what will speak volumes about how good a job everyone did will be how many productions this camera will be used on over the next year or so.

If they had demonstrated this small camera at NAB then maybe they should have talked about it. But they certainly didn't need to mention it to fill the booth. Whats the likelihood that they will ship this new camera before next NAB? If not, how great would it have been to show up with a new camera unannounced. Or if they didn't think they would get many people in the booth at next NAB announce it a couple of weeks before instead of talking about futures.

I guess its a difference in approach, I prefer a company who develops technology without the hype and delivers a great product. I didn't put a deposit on Red not because I didn't like the concept, I didn't believe the hype. Many at Red might say shame on me we proved you wrong. Good for Red, I'd like to see them successful. But the question is how many people who didn't want to spend money on the hype are there? You might be surprised. And like me I'm sure they'll wait to see how well Red delivers knowing full well that by next NAB there will probably be two more cameras very similar to this one.

As a company its hard to make a living just selling the the early adopters.
 
AloysiusK said:
Jim Jannard didn't make Oakley sunglasses the most buzzworthy name in sunglasses by accident. He knows how to get people excited about his product and he knows how to turn the consumer into his personal salesman.
Click to expand...

If you know of any somewhat serious large company that can survive without serious marketing please tell me. They are remains of the ancient past.
Oakley was succesfull because they listened and ineracted with their users, make great products by adopting new technology and by making a whole lott of buzz and 'cool' around their products.
So?

A good product with a large fanbase. Sounds like a healthy base for company to me...
 
ChuckS said:
...knowing full well that by next NAB there will probably be two more cameras very similar to this one.
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That's something I've been wondering about. Is anyone going to respond (at a similar price)? Panasonic just introduced the HPX500 in that price range, but it's not even 2k, right?

It seems like the major brands are just now fully committing to 1080, and aren't even interested in 4k. And really, not that many jobs need 4k. A lot of broadcast is still 720 (or SD of course).

I don't keep up with the really high end stuff, so I'm actually curious. Will there be competition for Red at NAB'08?
 
Sure there will be competition. I can't imagine no one working on somithing more or less simular. But when will they be ready?
And as you point out. For broadcast this is not going to be standard gear for years to come. But for moviestudios and production companies, this is a tool they dreamt about for quite a while.

But as I said, I expect competition. But wether that will be a prototype or a production unit, and with the same or more or less features...
Oh for crying out loud, NAB 07 ain't over yet.
I'm going back to work...
:)
 
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