Slo-Mo and REDCODE RAW questions...

[Stephen Williams]

Touchet!

Stephen, I would be interested to hear about the results of your tests, be sure to follow up.

- Gavin

Gavin,

Trying to get the Arri Film laser for free have slowed this one down, but I think that is solved now!

Stephen

 

[visceralpsyche]

This is going to be heresy but don't forget that if you want a 60fps shot in post you can always use the 4K 30fps option and interpolate the frames x2, then slow it back down to 24fps (ducks as eggs and rotten fruit get thrown from four continents at once!!).

I know it could lead to all sorts of artefacting etc, BUT at 4K with progressive frames and the kind of detail in each frame, it may be viable to enough of an extent that by the time it goes through the entire post process of colour correction etc no one in the audience will ever notice.

Remember, if you are an indie filmmaker trying to get by then "adapt, improvise and overcome" is your mantra! If you are shooting a Hollywood feature then a RAID fridge isn't going to faze you. If you are an indie trying by hook or by crook to finish your film in 4K then the odd compromise isn't going to upset the balance of the Force too much and might just give you that elusive shot that makes the film while staying within the budget!!

Think outside the square...

 

[agwah]

Now wouldn't it be cool if one could capture 120p uncompressed RAW out to the RAID and then feed it back through the camera after the shot was complete to compress it to REDCODE RAW?

Cool idea, is there a battery driven raid able to handle a setup like that.

 

[Stuart English]

Table

Table

The table proposed earlier in the thread isn't 100% correct.

We will publish the average data rates, and bit depths later as there are lots of decisions and optimizations to be worked through.

4.5K is RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Super 35 framing

4K is RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Academy 35 framing

2K if RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Super 16 framing

2K if RGB, means sampling is 4:4:4 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing

1080p if RGB, means sampling is 4:4:4 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing

1080p if HD, means sampling is 4:2.2 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing

720p if RGB, means sampling is 4:4:4 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing

720p if HD, means sampling is 4:2.2 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing

 

[ZaneIsNumber1]

So can anyone answer if the only reason the red can not record -over cranked, 4.5k, 4k uncompressed or 2k 60-120fps- without being tied to a red-raid due to the vast amount of information?

Basically yes. Too much information to record to anything less than a RAID setup.

I believe the compression hardware also has it's limitations, maxing out at 30fps in 4k and 60fps in 2k, meaning its uncompressed or bust for high frame rate shooting (4k 60fps or 2k 120fps).

It's funny to think that before IBC we all thought the only way to shoot 4k was uncompressed to a RAID setup. Now we have it onboard up to 30fps, but still want more!

I am curious to learn more about RAID setups. Will we really have to be teethered to something the size of a refridgerator in order to record the camera's full 4.5K image at 60 fps?

 

[Jarred Land]

For 4.5K uncompressed RAW, you're looking at around 395MB/s. That's why you need a RAID system - perhaps with six drives or more.e.

10 drives.. your gonna need 10 drives to record over the entire capacity of the disks.

 

[laboprod]

Something to remember is that pretty much any feature you go and see in a cinema today is less than 2K resolution by the time it ends up on the release print. So 2K isn't actually that bad. It sounds like your best option would be to shoot at 2K raw (or RGB where you need the frame rate) maybe using S16 lenses.

The only problem is that if you want RAW S35mm sized sensor, you have to record 4,5k (for academic 35mm you have to record 4k). Because when recording 2k RAW, it is only possible with windowed sensor, so it is S16mm.

I also think 2k would be a good resolution to work with, but not if you want 35mm, or only with 2k scaled RGB...

It seems to me, that the RED I is a "little bit in advence" compare to the speed of the magazines.... but hopefully, RED will update the firmware (or such things) to allow more record option (like 4k RAW up to 60 fps with the RED-DRIVE), when faster magazines are available. Anyway I do not think it is really a problem for me, as most of my work is shot at normal speed.
And I have to say that the dev of REDCODE is amazing and is going to solve nearly all problem, so a big HOURRAY for the RED team, even if there is always things to improve.

About the difference of DOF and FOV when comparing 4,5k and 2k windowed, it is sitll not clear for me.
Imagine I am using the REDZoom at 18mm, with S35 sensor size I should get a FOV of 66 degree and using the S16mm sensor size I should get a FOV of 36 degree... so switching between full size sensor and windowed sensor but letting the same lens, will change the FOV. So for instance the 18-85mm lens using a S35 sensor size represent a FOV of 66 to 16 degree, and the same 18-85mm lens using a S16mm sensor size represent a FOV of 36 to 8 degree. Is that correct???

Thanks,
antoine

 

[Haakon]

4.5K is RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Super 35 framing
4K is RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Academy 35 framing
2K if RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Super 16 framing

Thanks, Stuart. That's what I originally thought, but according to the format options page (here), there are many designations that say "60fps RAW 4:4:4," so I wasn't sure how to interpret that. Can you help clarify a little? Also, you mentioned

1080p if RGB, means sampling is 4:4:4 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing
1080p if HD, means sampling is 4:2.2 and Academy 35 or Super 16 framing

If the latter is not RGB, what is it? Are they both compressed with REDCODE?

 

[Muttondraw]

About the difference of DOF and FOV when comparing 4,5k and 2k windowed, it is sitll not clear for me.
Imagine I am using the REDZoom at 18mm, with S35 sensor size I should get a FOV of 66 degree and using the S16mm sensor size I should get a FOV of 36 degree... so switching between full size sensor and windowed sensor but letting the same lens, will change the FOV. So for instance the 18-85mm lens using a S35 sensor size represent a FOV of 66 to 16 degree, and the same 18-85mm lens using a S16mm sensor size represent a FOV of 36 to 8 degree. Is that correct???

A lens giving you a FOV of 66 to 16 degrees from a S35 area on the sensor will give a FOV of 30 to 7.3 degrees when using a S16 area. Just divide the angle by 2.198 to go from S35 to S16. THE DOF will be the same for a given focal length whatever the sensor size (assuming the other DOF variables like aperture etc remain constant) but will be different for a given FOV. So for 18mm focal length the DOF will be the same using S35 or S16 sensor areas but for a FOV of 66 degrees the DOF in S35 will be greater than the DOF in S16 because to get a 66 degree FOV in S16 you would have to use an 8.2mm focal length.

Martin

 

[Muttondraw]

The only problem is that if you want RAW S35mm sized sensor, you have to record 4,5k (for academic 35mm you have to record 4k). Because when recording 2k RAW, it is only possible with windowed sensor, so it is S16mm.

Yup. My plan (at the moment) is to shoot 4.5k Redcode RAW when possible and scale in Redcine to 1080p. But I am also going to try out my S16 zoom, shoot 2K Redcode RAW and scale in Redcine to 1080p. I think this could be a good lightweight compromise when a lighter rig is needed.

Martin

 

[Haakon]

Yup. My plan (at the moment) is to shoot 4.5k Redcode RAW when possible and scale in Redcine to 1080p.

Is there a 4.5K REDCODE RAW option available? The most I've seen published so far is 4K (but then again, things change with this camera every hour).

 

[macgregor]

What a second, according to that list, we will not be able to get s35mm FOV in the camera other than at 2k RGB. ¿is this correct?

I am not happy.

 

[Haakon]

No, only 4.5K gives you a Super35mm aspect. I've updated the tables, but holding off on reposting them until some further clarification is received.

 

[Anders Holck]

Thanks, Stuart. That's what I originally thought, but according to the format options page (here), there are many designations that say "60fps RAW 4:4:4," so I wasn't sure how to interpret that. Can you help clarify a little? Also, you mentioned


If the latter is not RGB, what is it? Are they both compressed with REDCODE?

4:2:2 is normally YUV

 

[macgregor]

No, only 4.5K gives you a Super35mm aspect. I've updated the tables, but holding off on reposting them until some further clarification is received.

Yeah, but we cannot record 4.5K in the camera, nor in a portable solution, nor in a not ultra expensive solution (expensive in this case means to me more than what the camera costs).

 

[Haakon]

Yeah, but we cannot record 4.5K in the camera, nor in a portable solution, nor in a not ultra expensive solution (expensive in this case means to me more than what the camera costs).

Ah, so you mean onboard recording. Well, you can only get Super 35 framing when shooting 4.5K, as far as I have gathered. With 2K, it's possible to shoot scaled, but you're scaling from the 4K image, not the 4.5K one. You also lose the ability to shoot RAW when doing that. So you can acheive an Academy 35 aspect shooting 2K, but not a Super 35 one - and this is only available in RGB mode.

 

[macgregor]

You understood me wrong.

Grame said:
"4.5K is RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Super 35 framing."

And before that it has been said that only 4K is supported in the camera, which means, that 4.5K and S35 framing is not possible IN the camera.

So either we are loosing 4.5K raw in camera or some of the charts are wrong.

 

[Haakon]

"4.5K is RAW, means sampling is RAW (not 4:4:4) and Super 35 framing."

Correct.

And before that it has been said that only 4K is supported in the camera, which means, that 4.5K and S35 framing is not possible IN the camera.

I think using the term "onboard" is better than "in camera," because it is possible to shoot 4.5K in the camera - you just need a RAID to do it. But yes, you are correct here as well.

So either we are loosing 4.5K raw in camera or some of the charts are wrong.

This is where you're losing me... 4.5K RAW was never available onboard. Which chart shows you otherwise?

 

[Blue]

It must have been asked a hundred times, but anyway: Any chance of 4.5k REDCODE?

 

[macgregor]

4.5K was never available on board true.

But am i the only one who thinks that a RAID setup is totally impractical outdoors? Which means that we will not be able to shoot with S35 framing in many of the cases. Which is something disappointing here. That´s all.