Slo-Mo and REDCODE RAW questions...

Actually, I'm glad they're making the best image their top priority. Compromises have to be made somewhere. With all the suggestions flying around I was a little worried that the simplicity of image excellence would be overshadowed by feature set. That looks like it isn't happening. Thankfully.

I suppose, if I was really concerned with 120fps, with 4K finishing, then it'd be a conundrum (depending on RED RAID's price and ease of use). However, I use that so infrequently, that it's not a priority compared to getting a camera with image excellence and delivered sometime in 2008... Methinks, mixing 60fps 2K RGB with 4K may be a viable choice, or alternatively, renting a RAID for those rare 120fps shots. :beer:

I expect the specs will change again before you've finished the dictionary, too. That's what the backspace button is for...;p

:beer:

RED# cautiously optimistic

Haakon said:
I'm working on it. Right now it feels like there are 100 papers strewn all over the floor. :)

Things keep changing too - which isn't a bad thing - but that makes things more difficult. I have realized a few things within this last discussion that I wasn't aware of previously (some not for the better), however, and I don't think I'm the only one. I don't think they gave out bad information, it's just a challenge to put all of the pieces together right now.

And you're right... the outdated table on red.com doesn't help. :-P
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Don't get me wrong, image quality is my top priority too! :) I wasn't poo-pooing them at all. I think originally when it was announced that one could do "4K up to 60p or 2K up to 120p" and then later that the 4K would be recordable onboard thanks to REDCODE, myself and others just made the brain connection that 4K at 60p or 2K at 120p would be possible onboard, thanks to REDCODE. That's the part that was innacurate. And I realize there are limitations to these things; we're sure getting a lot for our money! As it stands, there's just a lot of information out there that could stand to be consolodated into one place and I'm taking a crack at it.
 
Okay, here's what I've come up with so far. There are holes in the RGB information but at least it's a starting point. Hopefully Graeme, Stuart, or Rob can help flesh it out for us. Note that this information might not be completely accurate; it's just data I've culled from several places and should not be treated as an official source. I am merely providing it to help clear some confusion and answer some questions. The key thing to note is that if you are planning to shoot in 4K REDCODE RAW (as I expect many people are), the most you can get from the camera is 30p. Also note that you can get 60p out of the camera in 2K mode, but to do that you either have to shoot windowed RAW or scaled RGB. There is no 2K REDCODE RAW scaled option available (at least not yet). The other thing I know after typing this up is RED better have a pretty easy to use GUI to switch between all of these formats! :)

Enjoy, and please let me know if any of the information is completely wrong.

edit: oops gotta correct some numbers :) be back soon
 
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Yeah, thanks, Haakon. That helps to clarify things.

It looks like if you want to shoot a feature on location with overcranking, 2K REDCODE RGB is the way to go.

It's a shame that 4K compressed cannot overcrank.
 
I wouldn't stop shooting 4K altogether just because I needed to overcrank a shot or two in a full feature. I'd shoot REDCODE 4K for everything else and 2K for the overcranked shot. If I find that the shots really don't match well in post, only then would I cut the resolution of my project.

That's just me.
 
No problem guys. One could say I'm just really passionate about RED :-) but really it helped me to sit down and figure everything out... it was just getting way too confusing as it was.

Tom Lowe said:
It looks like if you want to shoot a feature on location with overcranking, 2K REDCODE RGB is the way to go.

It's a shame that 4K compressed cannot overcrank.
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Yeah, it's definitely a dilemma. With REDCODE's amazing RAW results, it sure would be nice to shoot in 4K. The compromise of having to shoot windowed or in RGB just to get the 60p out of the 2K isn't really a great solution either, though. I guess I just want to have my cake and eat it too. :) What I'm really hoping for is a 2K REDCODE RAW scaled solution at 1-60p; that would be the best way to use the camera I think. I'm not going to have the money (or the processing power!) to deal with 4K uncompressed RAW. 24p at 4K REDCODE RAW is an awesome premise though... as long as I can shoot films without slow motion this thing is going to be unstoppable! Haha... damn my HVX for spoiling me early.
 
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Yeah, it's not like I am only going to have a couple overcranks. I will have enough to make me not able to shoot at 4k. :(

It's just not going to match, and the whole reason to shoot 4k, for me, is to be able to output to 35mm with awesome results if my feature gets picked up, or to archive for later, like tens years down the road, when people will have 4K displays at home.

Is there any way RED can sort this out so we can shoot 4K compressed, maybe just up to 48fps?
 
Now wouldn't it be cool if one could capture 120p uncompressed RAW out to the RAID and then feed it back through the camera after the shot was complete to compress it to REDCODE RAW?

For example: Shoot a 30 second take in 2K uncompressed RAW at 120p onto the RAID. Then, as soon as the shot is complete, feed that footage back into the camera [digitally, from the RAID] and have the camera's internal REDCODE compressor compress it frame by frame [which should take :60 on a :30 shot, considering that the internal REDCODE can compress 2K/60p to REDCODE RAW in real time] and then delete the original uncompressed RAW. Basically just temporarily turn the camera into a hardware compressor... even if it couldn't compress in real-time.

It would essentially turn the RAID into a massive RAM buffer that would allow the user to end up with 120p REDCODE RAW 2K footage... even if it wouldn't happen in real time. The end storage savings would be immense if there was a significant amount of 120p needed.

Anyway, just a thought.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Yeah, it's not like I am only going to have a couple overcranks. I will have enough to make me not able to shoot at 4k. :(

It's just not going to match, and the whole reason to shoot 4k, for me, is to be able to output to 35mm with awesome results if my feature gets picked up, or to archive for later, like tens years down the road, when people will have 4K displays at home.
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I don't claim to be an expert, but it is my understanding that film laser-scanned into computers for VFX, DI, and other such purposes, is frequently scanned in at 2k anyway, then printed out to 35mm. 4k is mainly used on very complicated or difficult shots.

It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about this, but if not, I would take it to mean that a 2k master, if necessary for your framerate purposes, wouldn't be too much of a resolution hit.
 
Brook Willard said:
I wouldn't stop shooting 4K altogether just because I needed to overcrank a shot or two in a full feature. I'd shoot REDCODE 4K for everything else and 2K for the overcranked shot. If I find that the shots really don't match well in post, only then would I cut the resolution of my project.

That's just me.
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the 4.4.4 you have listed down for the 4.5k is not actually true is it?--- i mean from a data measuring point of view---- the max output of the camera at 4.5k is a pure raw bayer pattern which i don't think can be measured in pure '4.4.4' terms....it is what it is: "raw 4.5k bayer"
,.... i dont know im just an ameture talking out my ass maybe

where is mr. graeme??
 
DorkmanScott said:
I don't claim to be an expert, but it is my understanding that film laser-scanned into computers for VFX, DI, and other such purposes, is frequently scanned in at 2k anyway, then printed out to 35mm. 4k is mainly used on very complicated or difficult shots.

It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about this, but if not, I would take it to mean that a 2k master, if necessary for your framerate purposes, wouldn't be too much of a resolution hit.
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Hi,

I just scanned some 35mm film at 3k which was down sized to 2k. Working at 4k slows everything down too much at the moment unless you have a huge budget.

I also scanned some of the frames at 6k down sized to 4K. Hopefully I will see a back to back test (transferred back to film) this week.

Stephen
 
Future????

Future????

So can anyone answer if the only reason the red can not record -over cranked, 4.5k, 4k uncompressed or 2k 60-120fps- without being tied to a red-raid due to the vast amount of information?

What I am mainly wondering is years down the way when red drives and red-flashes are able to handle the mb's workload will we be able to simply record to them, or will only the hard wire line camera output be able to send that information out?
 
For 4.5K uncompressed RAW, you're looking at around 395MB/s. There's no hard drive that can come near to sustaining that kind of transfer rate or write speed. That's why you need a RAID system - perhaps with six drives or more. Even the 2K uncompressed RAW is pretty beefy. This is why REDCODE RAW is so fantastic... they're reporting that it's visually losless (and the sample images have been great), and allows you to shoot at those higher resolutions without needing to carry a refrigerator of drives with you wherever you go. If you had a drive that could deal with the kind of data that uncompressed RAW requires, I'm sure the Red firmware would be updated to take advantage of it. But that kind of device isn't going to be showing up in the reasonable future.
 
Haakon said:
Okay, here's what I've come up with so far. There are holes in the RGB information but at least it's a starting point.

Enjoy, and please let me know if any of the information is completely wrong.
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Thanks Haakon. I think its a great idea to try and get this a bit more nailed down. I remember Graeme saying that 720, 1080p and 2k are all 4:4:4 RGB (even though it doesn't say that on the Red table). I checked just to make sure I wasn't dreaming it up. It is in this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=739896&highlight=1080p#post739896

Martin
 
Ah, cool... I'll go ahead and change that. I had seen on the format options chart (like the other fellow in the topic you linked to had) that everything listed from 1080 and below was 4:2:2, but I guess they've updated that. So does the camera shoot anything but 4:4:4?

I probably should have just started a new topic when I made the chart so it would be easier to get to... maybe Jarred or another mod can split it when they are around. Anyway, thanks for the heads up.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Yeah, it's not like I am only going to have a couple overcranks. I will have enough to make me not able to shoot at 4k. :(

It's just not going to match, and the whole reason to shoot 4k, for me, is to be able to output to 35mm with awesome results if my feature gets picked up, or to archive for later, like tens years down the road, when people will have 4K displays at home.

Is there any way RED can sort this out so we can shoot 4K compressed, maybe just up to 48fps?
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Something to remember is that pretty much any feature you go and see in a cinema today is less than 2K resolution by the time it ends up on the release print. So 2K isn't actually that bad. It sounds like your best option would be to shoot at 2K raw (or RGB where you need the frame rate) maybe using S16 lenses. I can see a lot of benefits in shooting 4K when it is going to work out but I really wouldn't beat yourself up over it.

Just as an aside. Download the latest 4K image from the Red site, downrez it in Photoshop to 2K and then uprez it back to 4K. Now compare it with the original. You may be surprised. The difference is there, but it isn't as obvious as the difference in pixel count might lead you to expect....May make you feel better.

Martin
 
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