XL2 first real life impression

Re: XL2 first real life impression

[quote author=Johnnie link=board=XL2;num=1093021579;start=150#154 date=08/27/04 at 23:59:31]
The Anton Bauer to canon battery connection mount is the:
QR-XL1C,$180 new

Or $99used in B&H
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...me?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=2989+QR-XL1C&hl=en
[/quote]

Well, that page is cached by Google and B&H doesn't actually carry the product right now. I guess Anton Bauer must be making a new one for the XL2
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

Is it my monitor (Dell FS 17") or...

There seems to be some interesting VERTICAL smear of sorts. What is that? Almost a Vertical Mosaic kind of. Anyone see this?
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

The frame grabs are finally posted and I cant view them cause I'm in Atlantic City on Lodgenet's internet access thing and it can't open zip files :'(
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

whats up with that vertical interlaced look?? Besides those strip pattern things, the pics look great.

Any ideas??
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

It kinda looks like when you are running a clip in vegas and you turn on "simulate device aspect ratio". However, that effect doesn't come through when you export a frame. The only thing that I can think of is that Jared captured his entire screen (prints screen) command, and capture that anomoly with the clips.

Am I right Jarred? Do I get the prize?
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

It looks like nearest neighbor (as opposed to bicubic/bilinear/whatever else) image scaling combined with 4:1:1 color artifacting to me.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

The red and green aliasing is awful. IMHO it is not the lens but the electronics that is creating the green and red ghosting.

Also the serious color fringing was already demonsrtated in the original daylight pictures.

I'd say that Canon did a very poor job with this camera by not correcting optical and elecronic aberations. Now with the W/A the problems may be even bigger.

Does anyone know how does the DVX compare? How does it compare with the anamorphic adapter? Which brand? How close can you focus with the anamorphic? How much resolution do you lose with the anamotphic? How much is the anamorphic?

Does it make sense to buy this camera with the serious color image problems?
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

id bet my left leg along with my right that something else is wrong- not what your saying director. I highly highly doubt that its the camera that did that. Theres no way that thats a regular image capture. And if you dont think so, then look at those first screen shots that were taken with the xl2 from the show where it was first showed.- those grabs didnt look like that. Something else was done wrong.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

Kevin

There was a DP that contributes to cinematography.com that was at the DV Expo East show and he reported significant aliasing problems. He must have seen something. He may have mislabeled it. But the serious color fringing in the daytime grabs and this color aliasing is a very serious defect. It may be the same thing.

I just went back and blew the image 800x. Do it and check the horse. It's head is basically 1/2 red, 1/2 green. My explanation is that the following contributes:
1. pixel shift between sensors
2. poor filtering. There is definitely serious color shift and color ghosting (aliasing) that is not corrected. The shifted pixels require something similar to Bayer filtering. It was apparently not applied correctly. Canon may have used some off the shelf chips instead of developing custom chips, which are on low volume items quite expensive and they don't even have the expertise in this area that Sony and Matsushita have.
3. The lens definitely shows serious color fringing
4. Color fringing due to a inexpensive prism system

None of these things are due to DV compression.

Here is one more explanation. I read somewhere that Canon was going to replace the XL1s with an HDV model but it relies heavily on Sony and Matsushita technology. Canon always had in the camcorder product line. This is typical for the Japanese manufacturers. They share technology and patents. Together they conquer the world, very successfully. They don't sue each other for infringing on patents, etc.

Sony and Matsushita have not advanced fast enough in the HDV chip manufacturing. That is what is holding up quality HDV introductions. Nanotechnology chips are needed for low power, high quality processing and that technology is only now becoming available.

The color shifting technology of the Canon allow it to use it up to 1080. There was no sense to use the pixel shift for any other reason. XL1(s) used it because the chips were low res. Other cameras use it because they want to achieve high still picture resolution. The pixel shift does not have as good image quality as aligned CCDs. The only logical reason Canon used it was because of it was meant for HDV. So Canon may have been developing HDV-DV camera, where the performance was to concentrate to the HDV format and DV was not to be developed to its limit. The technology from Sony/Matsushita/etc. was delayed. Meanwhile XL1(s) stock was depleted and the technology was not coming any time soon so a decision was made to produce the camera without the HDV section. I can see this as the only explanation. What puzzles me though is the poor quality of the new 20x zoom. The color fringing is terrible. It is definitely not an HD product, I hope. It may be function-wise a type of lens that we will see on the HDV camera but the optical system must have been designed for DV. It is some prototype design that they pulled. They may be testing the market acceptance of this type of lens, function-wise. These things are all made on 100% automated robotic lines and are made in batches.

I wonder if the DVX has similar problems, but I doubt it. How is the performance with the anamorphic? Can someone let me know. please.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

Kevin,

I use the anamorphic with a DVX100A and the image is amazing, no such problem.
The anamorphic was a "zoom/iris/focus" headake the first day i used it, but after some testing, i now can use "safe" settings and point and shoot without any focus problem... but to go even further i'll use Barry Green's guide for the anamorphic lense with charts for zoom/iris/focus.

...regarding the XL2's color fringing, that's something i really dont like.
I just hope it was a problem only with the preproduction units.
If not, i doubt i would go for it.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

Hi, Some guy noticed it on the NTSC model too and described it as aliasing. Pretty bad stuff.

How close can you focus with the anamorphic at W/A and midrange zoom?
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

Hum...

Very speculative thoughs, herr direktor...

>I'd say that Canon did a very poor job with this camera by not correcting optical and elecronic >aberations.

I can't believe that canon would try to sell a so expensive camera with those kind of problems...
It's business, serious business...

>There was a DP that contributes to cinematography.com that was at the DV Expo East show and he >reported significant aliasing problems.

The "famous DP" contribution seems to be a hoax.

> I just went back and blew the image 800x.

You must be a little psycho-bargeot to look for clues in jpeg picture zoomed 800x ! (jpeg is a loss compression)

We have definitely to wait for some reals tests with a definitive camera.

And read of course with I'm sure a lot of pleasure the soon coming xl2user.com ! ;)
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

the fringing is pretty obvious; canon only lets out fully factory tested models to the press, etc. The tested camera was one of them. the one you'll buy from a dealer will not be tested by canon as much.

I never said a famous director. I said a DP. i read his report at cinematography.com. No hoax.

Sorry; I blew the image 800%, not 800x; the image was not compressed; only the DV compression; compression does not cause this type of artifacts.

This was a real test with a real camera; the production cameras that are supposed to be out in couple of days will not be any better.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

The famous DP qoute was used by someone before any test footagae came out. That this world famous DP had knocked the camera. I think the person who wrote this, thought it'd add more punch to his dislike of the camera to make the DP sound bigger than he was.

Not that I'm going to love Canon, but I hope it does well. Acutally, I hope it does great. That will push Panasonic to do something better, then Sony, so on and so on. Then we'll keep getting better cameras.

Then some day we'll have a great camera that won't cost an arm and a leg. Things will keep move up the ladder. But like film. You can shoot on a 20 year old camera or a brand new Arri and you'll be pretty close to each other if you have the right DP. But in the end it'll be the story that'll sell the film. Yes, it has to be shot well. But if the story sucks it doesn't matter how pretty it looks.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

Your interview footage comparison...
It seems DVX100 is under exposed by at least half a stop.
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

As for the "world famous DP"... Mitch Gross is an accomplished indie film director of photography. He's not "famous" or "world famous", nor does he claim to be. I think whoever made that initial post tagged him as such, and unfortunately that label seems to be a lighting rod for attracting attention.

Simple point is, Mitch is very, very experienced, well versed, well thought of in the indie film circles, and I respect his opinion, whether he's "world famous" or not... ;)
 
Re: XL2 first real life impression

I don't know where you guys are coming out with the famous film director. I never said famous. Yes, it was Mitch Gross. Thanks for reminding me. I read his post at the cinematography forum and no one ever refered to him as famous.

As to Canon pushing Panasonic and Sony? I doubt that. This is the last prosumer camera that will not be HD.

What will push Sony and Panasonic and a few other lesser companies to produce affordable quality digital cinema stuff are the two 1080p $5K cameras that will be coming out in a month or two from Summix and SI. The same quality as the Kinetta, at a small fraction of the cost, with less expensive lens system. You'll need a PC or a MAC to record to though. These two cameras will allow you to make films that will project well even to the biggest screen. When these two cameras with the new Altasens CMOS come out, that will be the dawn of new era of independent filmmaking. The Canon and the HDV -- it is all nothing. Who needs 20:1 compressed HDV image if you can get uncompressed one for the same cost. The cameras will not be as convenient to use, but they will start a new indie revolution.

Would you buy a $8,000 PAL Canon with a wide angle lens in the price that is 480p, or would you rather buy a 1080p $8,000 camera, where the price will include lenses and the CMOS will be 2/3", with no color fringing. It will be less convenient to use. Your NLE will cost more but it could double as an acquisition recorder, or you could get a smaller computer for that. Which one would you rather buy?
 
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