X70 4k: an insult!

andykwilkinson said:
the only source I would trust is what Sony published a few days ago - and it's very clear that 4K will require a paid for upgrade - see the relevant section on this official Sony web page.

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/article/b...News_Broadcast_Firmware2__a3&cmp=scl-cc-10324
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Exactly. The company has spoken, officially. What reps at trade show booths say is rarely a more veritable source than an official company press release. What the rep said at the trade show directly conflicts with what Sony's printed release says.

In the press release, Sony says that there is a new free firmware update coming, AND there is an optional 4K license coming. Two separate things. There will be free firmware that gives you proxy recording, FTP transferring, streaming, and a wired LAN connection. That's all free. And there is no 4K in the free release. In fact, if you read the press release, they even put that part in bold -- they said "NOTE: 4K recording requires purchase of the 4K Upgrade License (CBKZ-X70FX)." In bold.

Separately, there will be a new, optional product introduced, a 4K recording license, that already has a product number: CBKZ-X70FX. If you buy that optional license, you will get 4K (3840x2160) 60mbps recording in 24p, 25p, and 30p. And, potentially, maybe, in the future, there may be a higher bit-rate recording added. That part is not guaranteed, they only say that they are "looking to support" a higher bit-rate mode.

So it should be very clear and without any confusion: 4K is not free. The camera will be getting a free firmware update that expands its functionality, but it remains what you originally bought -- an HD camera. If you want to turn it into a 4K camera, you will need to buy the 4K license. And the 4K license will be required for 24p, 25p, AND 30p. And there is no 50p or 60p coming. There is no 4096x2304 coming. It will be 60mbps 24p, 25p, or 30p, in an MXF wrapper, at 3840x2160, and 4:2:0.

What is not stated in the press release is what the CBKZ-X70FX 4K license will cost. Other mentions in other places claim it'll be 450 euros... all I can say on that is -- my suggestion would be to ignore it until Sony officially lists the product for sale. And that will likely be several months away. The firmware won't be available until June, so there's no reason for them to have to announce pricing on it until it's available. They may, of course, but they may not, but in any case, it doesn't really matter what it is going to cost until you can actually buy it, so -- don't sweat it. Yet.

This is, fundamentally, exactly the same kind of thing that Panasonic did with their 1080/60p upgrade for the AF100. They introduced several free firmware updates, but if you wanted to enable 1080/60p, you had to buy a separate product, a different firmware license key. All other updates were free, but the 1080/60p feature was an additional cost. And, even after the AF100A was introduced with 1080/60p built-in, the original AF100 owners still, to this day, would have to pay to get 1080/60p. I don't know how many users actually paid for the firmware update; I think that I only recall one person on the forum here saying that they did it. I know I never bothered, my AF100 is still 1080/60i to this day. I sincerely doubt paid firmware updates are going to prove a popular thing, and Sony will now have four months of irate customers yelling at them prior to it being released, so ... I wouldn't stress over it until it's an actual thing, an actually buy-able product. Until that happens, it cannot affect you in any way, right? Let 'em know if you're unhappy about what you're hearing, maybe they'll publish some clarification, but until it's an actually buy-able product it has no actual effect on you so don't lose too much sleep over it.
 
It's worth noting that with the Sony PMW-F3 S-Log and RGB was a paid upgrade, costing about $3,600. When it was announced, plenty of people complained about the price, but Sony didn't budge, and plenty of us ended up paying because at the time it was the best deal going, no matter how much we didn't like it. But soon enough, Canon released their C300 with Canon's log curve included in the price, and it forced Sony's hand into putting much of the S-Log functionality into the base price of the F3 via a free firmware update and dropping the price on the firmware upgrade for the RGB features by 75% or so.

Essentially - if you don't need a feature today, don't buy it today. When the competition undercuts the current pricing with new model, that's when you're likely to see Sony drop their firmware pricing, if at all. But again, only pay for what you absolutely require, and keep your speculating in the marketplace to a minimum.
 
I think the reason for the animus is that Sony seems to be charging about $500 for an "upgrade" to a 4K 4:2:0 codec which already exists built in to their own much less expensive consumer camera.
If they were charging for 4K 4:2:2 I think more people would accept that.
 
AtticusLake said:
And at the time, did the cheaper cameras in Sony's lineup already have that feature, built-in and for free?
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No. And I take your point. But I posted not to comment on whether Sony's business decision was wise, fair, or reasonable; but rather to comment practically on what market circumstances would likely be necessary before Sony will change their pricing on this product.

By all means, if the AX100 is a better solution for your business, buy it. If the X70 offers features you require that the AX100 does not, then clearly this isn't an apples to apples comparison to begin with; you pay more for the X70, you get a different feature set, that may exclude features of the cheaper product.

Sony has no obligation to give you what you want, even if a cheaper product has that feature.
 
Interesting that the higher end X180 and X200 mention nothing of 4K upgrade paths. Strange that have the same PXW moniker but they are so far off in terms of features, and the PXW-Z1000 shoots 4K, huh? In some crazy way this makes sense to Sony?
 
andykwilkinson said:
Could not agree more. This is why I WAITED until I knew what Sony was going to announce before seriously considering buying it - which I no longer am. NAB in couple of months so I'll just play a waiting game again! (Secretely wanting a 4K capable C300 MkII to be affordable - I might be disappointed in that desire too!)
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I'm in the same mind set. If they annouced 8bit 4:2:2 at 100mbit, I would still buy it and pay for the upgrade. Not now.
I'm wondering if they will enable 10bit 4:2:2 4K external recording via the HDMI output. That would help.
 
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This announcement really comes as no surprise to me. I was really hoping for more but expecting less and less is what they are offering.

Anyway, this "semi-pro affordable 4K" carrot is really getting worn out! :embarasse
 
The thing seems to be that developing pro camcorders is very expensive.

As a result of competition, the prices we have been paying seem insufficient to generate a profit.

So, some of the manufacturers are cranking out models at "slippery slope" prices, hoping we will buy initially and then not balk at "upgrades". It's probably a lot more complicated than this.

I notice at HD Warrior that folks are ranting about the PXW-X70 at the same time as Philip Johnston seems to be raving about his new FS7, except that he is unhappy with the PAL SD signal putting out 575/50i

I bought a Panasonic AG-AC160 and then upgraded it to 160A. As I recall, the upgrade was around $350. I was not too bent out of shape paying this on what was at the time a $4,000 cam.

In my case, since videography is not my day job, I cannot afford to buy and write off a cam when the next generation cam comes along. So, no 4K for me.

Future proofing seems difficult these days, what with Canon announcing a 120 mega pixel sensor.

Anyone care to speculate when there will be a product featuring this sensor, who will (other than everyone) want to buy it, what they will use it for?

http://www.gizmag.com/canon-120-megapixel-cmos-sensor/16128/

Feel free to respond privately so as not to pollute this thread.
 
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I think the issue with the x70 is that one might see the upgrade as a "pro level" price for capabilities that are surpassed on censure and certainly other lower proceed professional camcorders.
I suspect if the upgrade were 4:2:2 or 200mbps data rate there'd be much less animus.
That's also compounded in that the June delivery date indicates a low priority along with the lower end feature set.

That it takes Sony about 8 months from a release date to offer a consumer level upgrade at a pro level price does no engender trust for their camera upgrades.
 
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