Will good things come to those who wait - RED?

HKO

HKO

Well-known member
Just thinking out loud here guys so go easy on me.................:happy:

Placed a pre-order for the AF100 a few days ago. Sat on the fence for a few days and now I am afraid I feel I am going to cancel it.I keep thinking, perhaps I got a little ahead of myself with the great excitement. The AF100 is an amazing tool no doubt......but I am getting cold feet because I know that if I spend the money now - if /when better stuff comes out I will have buyers remorse. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh decisions.....there is soooo much just around the corner..

Anyway here's why - Good things come to those who wait right? I downloaded some raw 4K R3Ds from the RED website and dragged them into Vegas. Was surprised at how easily Vegas played the files natively (obviously scaled down but on my 1920 X 1080 p monitor was fine to edit and grade them. I also converted some of the files into Cineform - took them into first light and every change I made to saturation, gamma, white balance etc was a very, very pleasing result overall. I have captured to 10 bit Cineform from some of my cams and also to the Nanoflash over the last few years and so I have tonnes of footage lying around of all sorts of scenes. Grading them - although 8 bit sources and 4:2:2 was not as pleasing as a result on ALL counts. The RED stuff was just - well exquisite - I suppose the deeper bit depth and resolution have a part to play. I am basing this on an unbiased gut feel and a few tests. I just couldn't get any 8 bit acquired stuff to push around in grading very well. Mind you - it wasn't rubbish and certainly was a step up from Mpg, HDV or AVCHD but the 4k stuff was just - well wow! I also downloaded the Crews still grabs and graded them in Speedgrade onset - again not bad but hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - something missing. Blown highlights hear and there and it got me thinking - RAW would be nice, extended dynamic range etc, and the more I graded, the more it reminded me of my 5D mark II Raw stills. Also the Sigma SD14. RAW IS a big deal - in whatever flavour it comes - even lossy compressed. It was a simple joy to grade.

Check this out - http://vimeo.com/16369165 . Tom Lowe with his AMAZING timelapses. RAW stills and RAW video from the RED. This is jaw dropping.300K hits so far says so as well.


Also try grading these files and see what I mean http://rojolooks.com/R3DFILES.html

I feel like I want to get the AF100 but somehow I feel that the extra 4 grand towards a Scarlet would be much better image quality - a significant step up from my GH13 or Nanoflash stuff wheras the Af100 resolves a lot of complaints - it is a smaller step up for me than to a RED.

Help me out here - does this make any sense?

Things are hotting up

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51563
 
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I would say stick to your pre-order. They put epic out today. I wouldn't advise any mature cinematographer to go with red until they change their strategy. Scarlet is not out. Yes r3d files are great, but they look good if what you shoot looks good.

The af 100 is out. get it. shoot it. according to everyone I've spoken to, you WILL be happy. But waiting for red means that quality is dependent on the camera. Whereas this could be technically true in most cases, be careful not to let the quality of the person shooting depend on the camera.

My two piasters.
 
:) any time.

Personally? To share? I'm not being able to justify an AF-100 over a GH2. This is completely personal, and that's my point.

Try this, I do it all the time for reassurance.

I'll show someone a clip, and ask them what I shot it on.

5% of the time I get an answer that would be as specific as (digital or film, or a guess at the codec), but even among the pros in town here, no one is ever right.

Now when I show a friend, or a stranger, or a banker, someone who isn't into movies past avidly watching them, I ask, what did I shoot this with? They say things like 'how the hell should i know, or what do i care, or screw that who is that chick, or wow look at the sky, or that guy looks lame etc.'.

Quite sobering.

The biggest reason I'm confused between the two is the 4000 dollar difference. Money is money, sometimes I just don't got it. Don't get me wrong, I barely drink anymore, I'm an early sleeper, and I'm not too nice off the bat, so I don't go out at all, the only thing I can ever talk about to anyone is work, the only thing I can justify spending money on is my job, my sneakers completely reveal my socks at a distance, but I do like to eat. Lebanon is indirectly very expensive. I WISH I live in dvxuser for example, but unfortunately I live on earth and I'm made of protein.

Now. To FURTHER confuse things :) Otis of Drama somewhere here posted some INCREDIBLY educated thoughts on the benefits of a 2/3rd inch sensor. And, yes, RAW is incredible to work with. I like the small size of a dslr more than anything else about them. by a huge margin. Also, some of the maddest sickest films I've seen where shot on 16, and I liked these movies well before I knew what a lens did.

Think of an ikonoskop, or a drama. Ikonoskop is cool, out of the box, tiny, raw, super16mm sized sensor. The Drama is slightly more expensive, yet there is a HUGE edge to it if it ever comes into production, is that we are 'meeting' the man behind it, and he doesn't suffer the testosterone. He isn't about horsepower per se, (even though there's mad bhp to a drama) but he is about aesthetic. He is programming and building the camera to comply with aesthetic desires on the filmmakers part. I don't sense any gimmickry with these two cameras, cause they're inclusive of what's necessary to shoot and no more, plus (I'm sure about ikonskop but hopeful about drama in this point) they ... work ... outside ... the box.

The advertised and marketed price (the number you remember and that everyone quotes over drinks) for a red one was 17,500. That got you a body.

The price of an a cam is something around 9000 dollars, but that gets you an image.

Your thoughts ma good sir
 
I have my doubts that the AF100 is worth the money. With this Codec? I`m always astonished how good my Canon 550 is - even in comparisson to my RED One. So why spending 6 times of the money for a AF100? The development goes so fast that it takes just 1 or 2 years and the AF100 is just old school (if it´s not already is). Don`t get me wrong. I also started with DVX100, HVX200,... and I respected the work of Panasonic. But what they offer us right now is from my point of view not state of the art. Even if we`re still waiting for the first Epic it`ll be a more secure investment for the future. And: If you`re once infected with the abilities of the RED RAW Codec in post you`ll never want to grade with something else ;-)

Cheers
Thomas.
 
I decided not to go AF100, I don't think my work will benefit that much to justify the money. I was at a point where I thought I'd have to upgrade my gear but realized that it's not my equipment but my attitude that sucks :)
 
My standing advice has always been -- don't buy anything unless you need it. And when you need it, buy the best you can get, and put it to work, and don't worry about anything else.
 
AD Tom said:
I have my doubts that the AF100 is worth the money. With this Codec? I`m always astonished how good my Canon 550 is - even in comparisson to my RED One. So why spending 6 times of the money for a AF100? The development goes so fast that it takes just 1 or 2 years and the AF100 is just old school (if it´s not already is). Don`t get me wrong. I also started with DVX100, HVX200,... and I respected the work of Panasonic. But what they offer us right now is from my point of view not state of the art. Even if we`re still waiting for the first Epic it`ll be a more secure investment for the future. And: If you`re once infected with the abilities of the RED RAW Codec in post you`ll never want to grade with something else ;-)

Cheers
Thomas.
Click to expand...

I've graded r3d's and still enjoy grading other stuff, but my thing that stuck about red is what happens when you go down from 4k to 1080. Ever since, if I have a 720p cam, I finish in SD, If I have a 1080 cam I finish in 720. And yes if I get my hands on an ikonoskop, I will finalize to 720p. It reminds me of when I was told to record at 96 in order to finish to 48, and 88.2 to finish to 44.1 (in sound)... that's my 'dammit red what did you do to me'. lol

Development though, does go really fast. That is pet peeve number one. I never buy the latest mac for example. I feel you
 
Barry_Green said:
My standing advice has always been -- don't buy anything unless you need it. And when you need it, buy the best you can get, and put it to work, and don't worry about anything else.
Click to expand...

If I may share an experience from 93-96. I was learning about recording in Jordan, which was TINY back then. My 'teacher' was this man named MAJ he's brilliant, but he did something cool. I had a lil yamaha keyboard with a midi sequencer on it, and when I saw this guy's studio it blew my mind. I was a kid then, so of course, the gear lust was soooooo quick to hit. What M did was talk to all (something like 5?) music dealers in town and specifically told them not to sell me equipment till I turned 18. I was ticked off, and he basically laid a barry green on me. He said I'll pay you in gear, piece by piece. He threw a mac classic my way and told me to connect it to my keyboard and gave me a copy of 'studio vision'. He said 'I'll give you something else the minute you want to do something with a track and just can't find any way to do it with what you got. That's when you deserve something new, and that way you'll ask for something that'll solve the problem you got at hand. That's the only way its fair for me to spend money on a kid. This stuff's expensive, and you're young.'

This stuck with me, and really the next time I ever heard the same train of thought was from mr green.
 
greymog said:
If I may share an experience from 93-96. I was learning about recording in Jordan, which was TINY back then. My 'teacher' was this man named MAJ he's brilliant, but he did something cool. I had a lil yamaha keyboard with a midi sequencer on it, and when I saw this guy's studio it blew my mind. I was a kid then, so of course, the gear lust was soooooo quick to hit. What M did was talk to all (something like 5?) music dealers in town and specifically told them not to sell me equipment till I turned 18. I was ticked off, and he basically laid a barry green on me. He said I'll pay you in gear, piece by piece. He threw a mac classic my way and told me to connect it to my keyboard and gave me a copy of 'studio vision'. He said 'I'll give you something else the minute you want to do something with a track and just can't find any way to do it with what you got. That's when you deserve something new, and that way you'll ask for something that'll solve the problem you got at hand. That's the only way its fair for me to spend money on a kid. This stuff's expensive, and you're young.'
Click to expand...

I could imagine this story as a very nice little short movie! Great message to it!
 
Stip, I just might :) haven't shot in about a month and tomorrow signals the start of two booked months, I am very happy. I just might on a weekend. :) It sounds more like a scene though. just between those two chars start with a ticked off adolescent and end with that line.

Yeah that was really helpful advice. It's like he gave me a marketing vaccine.
 
Thanks for your comments guys - hmm will ride this out a few months longer. Costs me nothing in the long term
 
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