Why no section for Audio design?

[Matt Grunau]

Just occured to me that this section of the forum is geared more towards the technical aspects of Audio for production (what mic does this, what accersories, what cords) and only occasionaly is there a post about sound design. Usually when there is, it is buried quickly.

I love doing post sound work. I love manipulating, twisting, altering, and mixing sounds to come up with new ones for a particular effect. Maybe we could have a sub forum in this one for Sound Design only. THe post production and effects design.

Just a thought.





ps. Dry ice and metal is your best friend ever.

 

[matthewd5]

i asked that question a long time ago when i first started really getting into dialog editing and getting deeper into the editing where i wanted to just add pfx (production fx, what i call things like the door slaming etc) stuff that you can see but often didn't get recorded very well.

its ironic but the better the mics get the less you get of the background sounds so then you find yourself having to drop those in!

its one of the mini-milestones when you go from lower end sound to better sound and especially if you are the editor.

matthew

 

[Matt Grunau]

Exactly. Foley is one part, but I also meant about sound design, as in creating something (say a spaceship pass or dino roar) that simply don't exist and must be created.

I've always felt that Sound Designers were at a bit of a disadvantage, since painters can take a blank canvas and create their work, photographers can set up just "that shot", 3D folks can make something from just a concept sketch. Not so with Sound Design.

We can't start from a blank canvas. We have to use recorded sounds and blend them, turn them into something we want. We don't have the luxury of literally starting from nothing and creating. FM synthesis can only go so far. We have to use something that is already recorded.

Hence the need for a dedicated Sound Design forum.

 

[Simon Höfer]

When you are using digital synthesizer to create sounds with frooty loops for example, I do think that is creating sounds from nothing.

You use tones created by overlaying sine waves... and tada you got a sound. Then you go on and use filters and so on. (for the spaceship for example)

Or you can record something with a mic and then change it, use effects and so on. That still is from scratch in my opinion.

 

[Noiz2]

Interesting thread. A couple of things. Production FX are literally those FX that have been pulled from the production tracks. Foley is recorded on a stage (sort of film talk for what music folks would call a studio) in sync to picture, in real time. If it's not done in sync to picture it's FX. There is this limbo category called Wild Foley (WIFO) that is things that would normally be done on stage in sync to picture but are done in a "real" space wild (as in not in sync). Many just refer to that as FX and really the line is a fuzzy one.

The other thing is that a "sound designer" in film is an undefined position. In theatre the designer is "the man (or woman)". They have all the power over sound that is under the director. That position in film is closest to the Supervisor. But unlike theatre where the mixers (or board operators) are instruments/ extensions of the designer in film they tend to have a lot of power. So most "designers" of note also work as the supervisor or the lead mixer or both. Also exactly what a designer does on a film is largely dictated by where they work and who they are working fore. In a med to large budget feature the designer could do anything from providing a few selected special sounds to running the whole shooting match, it's totally undefined. That is one of the reasons there is no academy award for sound design, you never know how much of that design was the editors and how much was the designer.

On tiny budgeted films you often see people crediting them selves as "designers". In most cases they probably have as much or more justification for that title as most "name" designers. But the title is pretty much a wank, because any kid who did mouth noises in a mic can and has called themselves a "sound designer". So if your looking to work in films your probably better off getting mixing credits than designer credits.

But I think that in the spirit of what sound design should be about, creating the sonic world in post, it would be a good thing to split the "audio" category into post and production.

 

[Noiz2]

I've always felt that Sound Designers were at a bit of a disadvantage, since painters can take a blank canvas and create their work, photographers can set up just "that shot", 3D folks can make something from just a concept sketch. Not so with Sound Design.
....
Hence the need for a dedicated Sound Design forum.

Film is not a solo art, painting largely is. A "3d artist" may create something from scratch following their muse, but not one working on a feature with a team of others. Film is a team sport. Recordings are your paints. Now you can go off and do "sound art" folks do, but that isn't filmmaking.
THere is a sound design list, it's just not on DVX User. and truthfully I don't think there should be one here because there are not enough post sound folks on this list. I'm not saying there are not any, I'm one but most sound post folks are on other lists. Personally I find most of it boring. Not because I'm not interested in sound and design, I've been doing it for a long time and it's still a favorite topic (ask my wife) but because it is mostly high-school kids and college kids rediscovering what everyone else did at that point in there lives. I was there and was I'm sure just as boring to others but after the 400th post on how to make a light saber sound, or how watching Eraserhead changed my life.......zzzzzzzzz

The problems in post are very interesting and that includes sound design, but if it's JUST sound design it is ignoring the realities of filming. It's not just about the spaceship sound, it's about the story. Getting the "right" door close might be very important to the story and may have involved a lot of design. But also involved the rest of the film. People love to talk about the dinosaur roars. But the design wasn't in the mechanics, it was in the performance and how that related to the rest of the picture. It's not mostly about HOW you did it but WHY you did it. If you know the why then there are always a number of hows that will work.

 

[Matt Grunau]

Film is not a solo art, painting largely is. A "3d artist" may create something from scratch following their muse, but not one working on a feature with a team of others. Film is a team sport. Recordings are your paints. Now you can go off and do "sound art" folks do, but that isn't filmmaking.
THere is a sound design list, it's just not on DVX User. and truthfully I don't think there should be one here because there are not enough post sound folks on this list. I'm not saying there are not any, I'm one but most sound post folks are on other lists. Personally I find most of it boring. Not because I'm not interested in sound and design, I've been doing it for a long time and it's still a favorite topic (ask my wife) but because it is mostly high-school kids and college kids rediscovering what everyone else did at that point in there lives. I was there and was I'm sure just as boring to others but after the 400th post on how to make a light saber sound, or how watching Eraserhead changed my life.......zzzzzzzzz

The problems in post are very interesting and that includes sound design, but if it's JUST sound design it is ignoring the realities of filming. It's not just about the spaceship sound, it's about the story. Getting the "right" door close might be very important to the story and may have involved a lot of design. But also involved the rest of the film. People love to talk about the dinosaur roars. But the design wasn't in the mechanics, it was in the performance and how that related to the rest of the picture. It's not mostly about HOW you did it but WHY you did it. If you know the why then there are always a number of hows that will work.

I agree to a point, though I tend to think of sound design as its own story teller. You can't have a "why" someone did it without first having a "how" the creation of the sound was made.

The audio section is pretty much a technical one, people asking about mics, people asking about software. I thought sub-forum dedicated on the How would benefit.

There are plenty of people and posts here who will tell you how to get good sound. But, there are considerably less on the construction of it.


That's why I though a Sound Design forum would be a good idea. A lot of people don't record their own sounds, they use sound libraries and specific sounds they have recorded and need to incorporate into their films.

Just like Lighting, which has its own forum, Sound Design should have its own, if under audio. Lighting is but one portion of filming. And yet, it has its own section, as does Cinematography, and writing, though they are all parts of the visual portion of film.

So why not break out Sound design?

It is an essential part of the film "experience", some argue more than the visual portion.

And so, we have what is kind of th industry standard. Sound design is approached and relegated to an almost back burner part of the experience.

That is why I think we need a dedicated part of Audio to be for the design.

 

[Noiz2]

I agree to a point, though I tend to think of sound design as its own story teller. You can't have a "why" someone did it without first having a "how" the creation of the sound was made.

The audio section is pretty much a technical one, people asking about mics, people asking about software. I thought sub-forum dedicated on the How would benefit.

There are plenty of people and posts here who will tell you how to get good sound. But, there are considerably less on the construction of it.


That's why I though a Sound Design forum would be a good idea. A lot of people don't record their own sounds, they use sound libraries and specific sounds they have recorded and need to incorporate into their films.

Just like Lighting, which has its own forum, Sound Design should have its own, if under audio. Lighting is but one portion of filming. And yet, it has its own section, as does Cinematography, and writing, though they are all parts of the visual portion of film.

So why not break out Sound design?

It is an essential part of the film "experience", some argue more than the visual portion.

And so, we have what is kind of th industry standard. Sound design is approached and relegated to an almost back burner part of the experience.

That is why I think we need a dedicated part of Audio to be for the design.

Well if your going to use that analogy then you would have to ask for a section on lighting design. The design and the hardware are lumped together right now. Part of the reason "sound design" forums and lists are a waste is because of you logic above. The "why" is not only more important it has to come first, not after the "how".
For hoots lets talk monser yells. You could get a whole lot of discusion on the perfect monster yell. But non of that is relevent till you know why the monster yells and how that fit's into this story and place in the movie. And you almost can't talk about that because the setup is so crutial to what is important. You can watch a sequence with someone and discus it but it's hard to talk about it and give enough info to be usful. Formulas are pretty usless if you want to do good work.
There are things that would be useful to talk about that are sort of like sound design. Like how to cut fight sequences to give that big film fight seq sound. There are guide lines that work pretty well for that. And what kinds of sounds work really well slowed down and such. But it's all general knowledge. A Foley section would be great. Folks could talk about how they made certain kinds of sounds. That would be very useful. I would agree that "sound" is an integral part of the film experience and how that sound was created and thought about is interesting. But most films over ten years old or so did not have "sound designers". It is also a pretty undefined title. Only a few folks who get Sound Design billing actually "design" the sound of a film. Most "designed" elements for the film. Most sound designers working on big budget films have almost nothing to do with any sound except for the "designed" elements. Many films with great sound "designs" were designed by the Supervising Sound Editor. Alan Splet was not the "sound designer" on The Black Stalion (the film he won an Oscar for) he was the sound supervisor.

Maybe a section on post sound would make us both happy. That would minimise the hardware talk and maximise the "design" of the sound track.

 

[Matt Grunau]

Maybe a section on post sound would make us both happy. That would minimise the hardware talk and maximise the "design" of the sound track.

Sorry for the double post, and many good points. A "post" section makes even more sense, since that could also include mastering, eq'ing, editing, track effects, noise reduction, as well as design and sound effects creation. I should have though of that, damnit.

I would certainly like to see a section on post sound, and will help as much as I can with it. Links for info, sites to get free sounds, tips and tricks with the software, ect.



Thanks dude.



EDIT: And no lightsabers.

 

[Noiz2]

It was sort of an after thought but actually I think it would be a really good thing to split the sound into post and production. Part of me likes the cross polination but I think as an information source the forum would improove with a split because post questions can get lost amung all the production questions.

Hey get real, your going to get some lightsabers ;~)