Meh. Apogee has a "sound," which some people can't live without, but technically their converters have been bested by Lavry, Mytek, and occasionally some others since pretty much the dawn of time at similar price points.
Why no one noticed Sound Devices USBPre 2 here?
- Thread starter Vitaliy Kiselev
- Start date
Meh. Apogee has a "sound," which some people can't live without, but technically their converters have been bested by Lavry, Mytek, and occasionally some others since pretty much the dawn of time at similar price points.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
OK.
But all this list looks strange.
First, if you need multiple inputs it is ok, but this is not related to this SD product.
And as video solution SD can't be compared to any of your choices (except for DR-680).
As for DR-680, it's preamps are not bad, but for low sensitive mikes and low level dialogue you really want to use external preamp.
Plus you really forget limiters and audio levels. Tascam has them, but they are not as good.
Add any good and cheap recorder with line level input to SD, and you have very good solution.
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Fitz Townsend
New member
Funny discussion, here. How come none of y'all are talking about build quality and ease of use in the field?
People who use SD know what it's good for. They are top notch quality and built like tanks. They are rugged and dependable. They are used by professionals who don't get to go back and 'do it again'. Clean and transparent as far as field gear goes.
There are tons of plastic boxes out there that have more options, channels, routing, etc. And if you like using 2 assignable buttons to control 20 parameters, and if you have the time, then great. You should buy for your budget - really. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is silly to buy SD if you don't need it. Ala hummer in a suburban parking lot. I probably wouldn't buy it for my home rig.
But if you're working in a high pressure situation, where the product needs to get out, and people's time is worth more than the equipment, then you buy something designed for the field, not the home studio.
It's not fun trying to hold 10 things while setting levels on an LCD screen that has 5 bars to represent your supposed 24/96 signal while hoping the sun doesn't melt the plastic casing, etc, etc, etc.
Sometimes paying for two gain knobs that you know will WORK, just about always, is worth it.
Plus, you will be able to use the amps on the SD in 10 years. Guaranteed.
The plastic boxes will break, probably in 5.
Pick what's best for the budget, all things considered...
People who use SD know what it's good for. They are top notch quality and built like tanks. They are rugged and dependable. They are used by professionals who don't get to go back and 'do it again'. Clean and transparent as far as field gear goes.
There are tons of plastic boxes out there that have more options, channels, routing, etc. And if you like using 2 assignable buttons to control 20 parameters, and if you have the time, then great. You should buy for your budget - really. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is silly to buy SD if you don't need it. Ala hummer in a suburban parking lot. I probably wouldn't buy it for my home rig.
But if you're working in a high pressure situation, where the product needs to get out, and people's time is worth more than the equipment, then you buy something designed for the field, not the home studio.
It's not fun trying to hold 10 things while setting levels on an LCD screen that has 5 bars to represent your supposed 24/96 signal while hoping the sun doesn't melt the plastic casing, etc, etc, etc.
Sometimes paying for two gain knobs that you know will WORK, just about always, is worth it.
Plus, you will be able to use the amps on the SD in 10 years. Guaranteed.
The plastic boxes will break, probably in 5.
Pick what's best for the budget, all things considered...
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
Fully agree 
I am kind of budget guy.
But you quickly start to realise that even on very tight budget you have many people involved and wrong gear always mean extra time.
This is why I am looking at SD.
Really I want to see SD sound recorder without record button. Just small power on switch on below, usb connection to get synched time from computer, and SD slot (with 8-32Gb card in it).
And free software working as DualEyes
I am kind of budget guy.
But you quickly start to realise that even on very tight budget you have many people involved and wrong gear always mean extra time.
This is why I am looking at SD.
Really I want to see SD sound recorder without record button. Just small power on switch on below, usb connection to get synched time from computer, and SD slot (with 8-32Gb card in it).
And free software working as DualEyes
Yup. You're right, it does look a bit jumbled
Well, I use the FR2LE all the time and with a pair of good mics I have no noise issues whatsoever. So you get the preamps, like with the SD, and the flash recorder for free. The reason I mention the Mackie, is that for less money you get high qaulity pres, a laptop interface and a mixer thrown in. Same with the RME, more I/O. Plus, there is the issue of digital pres, which if you are shooting multiple sessions is absolutely crucial. With digital gain, you get identical levels and can crosscut--ambient noise permitting--over multiple sessions. As for the limiter, I don't know anyone who uses one, since it is 24 bit and 1 bit roughly equals 6dB. But far better than a limiter is to split the mic cable into two with a mini adapter, and roll two channels with different gain structure. The, if you go over, you have a perfect backup with no pumping on the limiter, and no crackle when the limiter fails, which it will if pushed. Or, run a limiter on the backup channel as well. Plus you can run a stereo mix, and so on. I'm not disagreeing with you, because I'm sure you know more about video than I ever will, I'm just saying that you can get the same pres, plus more options for less money. And flexibility is a great thing to have--like when one channel craps out on the pres, you go, hey, I have a backup built in. And all this is not to say the SD is not a fine box--it is. But for the money, I would want a noise figure of 129.5 ein instead of 127, and some real class A circuitry, if I were to go with a separate pre. And maybe that is a Class A front end running off a USB bus, I'll check it out at the AES show.So maybe there is a real niche market for this box, compact, reasonably good sound, good build. Digital i/o. Can't go too wrong. Then it comes down to taste in preamps, with the added incentive of extra features. So I would want to do a real A/B, and see if the box really sounds better. And, as you say, with low sensitivity mics, the pres could be an issue. But I'd bet that the with a noise figure of 127 ein, there are quite a few boxes out there that would come in as quiet or quiter, pending actual AB testing, of course. Good news is there are great off-the shelf choices, of which Grace is great, and many others.
Hey, if you just want two channels, what about the Mackie Blackjack? Cirrus Logic Converters, dynamite specs, self powered, tiny, portable, built like a tank. True hardware monitoring for zero latency, so cool for video. And $200, so cheap. And it puts out true 48 volt phantom power which is a must unless you run mics with a DC DC Converter like the Schoeps, they don't care. My Sennheisers need the full P48.
You can see the Rightmark numbers here
http://www.eqmag.com/article/mackie-onyx-blackjack/September-2010/120761
But the self noise figures are suspiciously high--that could be due to a hybrid AD-preamp design. On paper they look a bit noisier. I'll see it soon.
But I still want the Tascam. I'm lazy. Less gear; more beer.
PS, thanks for the GH13 firmware, it is the best! You are the best!
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
Yup. You're right, it does look a bit jumbled
Yes, as far as I know FR2LE is not bad
Correct.
And if you'll look at Behringer mixers you'll get even more
It is just another product.
I just want you to think about SD as solution for particular problem.
And it looks like very good solution.
Very good levels, good preamps, limiters, good phones sound quality.
All you need is to add cheap laptop or cheap small recorder with line input.
As for limiters. They are just small safe net.
Not always you can be sure about levels in advance.
Anything can happen and if you'll get clipping it'll be real bad.
My current wish is recorder that saves PCM as main track and three MP3 tracks using separate preamps and ADC using different levels on each.
Recorder for dummies
Generally all problems with limiters is that you don't have information about changes embedded in the audio track.
So, ideal is floating point audio with very fast digital controlled preamp , so you won't neeed to set levels at all (it'll be just some software value used for postprocessing).
We are not far from this moment.
Fitz, you make too much sense to be posting here.
I bought a Zoom H1 because it fit the bill better than anything else for a small hotshoe mount stereo field recorder, but hell yes I wish it was ruggedized or even moderately less fragilized. I take good care of my gear and rarely break stuff in the field but I still wish it was built like an old Fender.
I think this space is moving away from dedicated recorders, though, toward simple interface dongles that plug into devices like the iPad. I recorded some live music this summer with just a pair of good mics, a preamplifier, and an A/D plugged into the USB adapter on an iPad. There are several apps now which are pro quality and offer good UI, and this space is still in its infancy. The future is not devices like the Zoom or the SD, it's interface dongles for iPads so you can have much finer grained control on a large touchscreen.
I bought a Zoom H1 because it fit the bill better than anything else for a small hotshoe mount stereo field recorder, but hell yes I wish it was ruggedized or even moderately less fragilized. I take good care of my gear and rarely break stuff in the field but I still wish it was built like an old Fender.
I think this space is moving away from dedicated recorders, though, toward simple interface dongles that plug into devices like the iPad. I recorded some live music this summer with just a pair of good mics, a preamplifier, and an A/D plugged into the USB adapter on an iPad. There are several apps now which are pro quality and offer good UI, and this space is still in its infancy. The future is not devices like the Zoom or the SD, it's interface dongles for iPads so you can have much finer grained control on a large touchscreen.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
Hi to all here. I find it a very interesting thread that is replying a lot of the question as I wrote below in another forum but with no feedback. The OP was complaining about hiss with his Tascam Dr-100.
After some extensive research I have found that the Zoom h4n and Tascam dr100 had very poor mic preamp that are fine for loud music concert performance etc. but not adequate for film dialogue. Unfortunately they have got some hype from the start from noobs (I come from photography) like me who don' t have any experience in sound equipment. Listening (to sample) and reading about people in sound, you do understand that they are far from the hype that they have gain in the dslr video groups.
Your post encouraged me to look at pc audio interface solution. I have seen solution from the sound devices usbpre (version 2 coming $650) to more modest solution like the emu 0404, presonus, mackie (about $ 200) with very very good preamps. I think that the usbpre 2 can use standalone without a laptop to feed to a recorder like the cheap m-audio microtrack 2 from this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139081.0 , the others I don' t know. It would be nice to know from somebody in the field who has suggested this solution.
After some extensive research I have found that the Zoom h4n and Tascam dr100 had very poor mic preamp that are fine for loud music concert performance etc. but not adequate for film dialogue. Unfortunately they have got some hype from the start from noobs (I come from photography) like me who don' t have any experience in sound equipment. Listening (to sample) and reading about people in sound, you do understand that they are far from the hype that they have gain in the dslr video groups.
Your post encouraged me to look at pc audio interface solution. I have seen solution from the sound devices usbpre (version 2 coming $650) to more modest solution like the emu 0404, presonus, mackie (about $ 200) with very very good preamps. I think that the usbpre 2 can use standalone without a laptop to feed to a recorder like the cheap m-audio microtrack 2 from this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139081.0 , the others I don' t know. It would be nice to know from somebody in the field who has suggested this solution.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
I have Tascam DR-100. And yes, it has problems with low sensitive mikes.
In fact, it's preamps are not made for speech or dialog recording. And as you said, it is intended for loud performance recording.
In reality indie filmmakers are too small niche. Guitar players and other musicians are about 1000:1 or even 10000:1 compared to us.
As for recorder for SD preamp. As far as I remember reviews best ones with linear inputs are Sony and Olympus.
I do not remember specific models, but they are from $200 to $300.
But you can use any cheap recorder with linear input, they are almost all pretty ok.
One more interesting thing is that linear input is in 90% cases just mike input with pad.
In fact, it's preamps are not made for speech or dialog recording. And as you said, it is intended for loud performance recording.
In reality indie filmmakers are too small niche. Guitar players and other musicians are about 1000:1 or even 10000:1 compared to us.
As for recorder for SD preamp. As far as I remember reviews best ones with linear inputs are Sony and Olympus.
I do not remember specific models, but they are from $200 to $300.
But you can use any cheap recorder with linear input, they are almost all pretty ok.
One more interesting thing is that linear input is in 90% cases just mike input with pad.
I think everything you say is very true for SD recorders. But if we limit the discussion to the topic of this thread, the USB Pre, then i think there's better to find with the competition. And a MOTU or a TC or a Mackie certainly isn't made of plastic.
Again, if you refer to SD recorders, you are absolutely right. But i thought this discussion was about audio interfaces like the USB Pre 2.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
This discussion is about quite affordable (if we look from solution of particular problem side) preamp that can be also used as USB interface.
And all other USB interfaces either can't be used as standalone preamps or are very weird in this role.
And all other USB interfaces either can't be used as standalone preamps or are very weird in this role.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
I think this solution, pc interface plus recorder or laptop in terms of sound quality to price is the best solution for indie to micro budget filmmaker. You could get a Mackie Blackjack, emu 0404 (or others) for about $ 200 dollar and a recorder in the $ 150 to $ 200 like the m-audio microtrack 2 or sony PCM-10. The total would be between $ 350 to $ 400. Only $ 50 to $ 100 difference to a zoom H4n or Tascam DR-100, but with vastly better pre amps. Even for those who have invested in a zoom H4n or Dr-100 would find it a natural upgrade for their investment.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
I do not agree here. Emu or Blackjack are clearly strange for indie, especiall because of levels. You need good, correct and visible audio level indication.
It is better to get Fostex FR2LE in this case.
It is better to get Fostex FR2LE in this case.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
Perhaps you should change the name of the thread or we should do another one with the theories, experience and reviews of the different solutions. As I wrote above the zoom and tascam have taken center stage in the Dslr video world as good sound system. The snow balling effect of so many thread and noobs(like myself) positive opinion without any prior experience in sound is making them the defacto standard for small filmmakers. It would be nice to have other solution with detail reviews and experience to give another perspective to small filmmakers community. I have been eying the makie blackjack and seeing some post here about its preamp quality is very valuable info for me.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
Won' t you see the levels on the laptop or your digital recorder when you plug them in and do you think you can monitor the sound from the microphone output (is it same that goes into the recorder?). Sorry for these question but unfortunately we can' t test them and have to relly on feedback on forum to make choices.
Only taking into account the audio interfaces :
I prefer this one, as its sturdy with excellent standalone operation, but mainly for its brilliant sound quality, although metering is limited to three leds for -30, -10 and OL http://www.tcelectronic.com/impacttwin.asp
MOTU has its product for mobile operation, but although a very respectable brand, i think sound quality isn't on par with TC's : http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler-mk3/ if you need extra features compared to the USB Pre, this might be a good choice. Metering is also excellent. If you need less there's the Ultralite : http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3/ Build quality with MOTU is very good.
These are devices that are on par or better than the USB Pre, yet cost a lot less.
As for recorders, i think Vitaliy and others are absolutely right : you cannot sacrifice quality for cost, and i would definitely go with SD or Tascam and take something that's built as a tank. I like my Zoom H2 a lot, but i do have to treat it like a baby, because it will break if i don't.
I prefer this one, as its sturdy with excellent standalone operation, but mainly for its brilliant sound quality, although metering is limited to three leds for -30, -10 and OL http://www.tcelectronic.com/impacttwin.asp
MOTU has its product for mobile operation, but although a very respectable brand, i think sound quality isn't on par with TC's : http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler-mk3/ if you need extra features compared to the USB Pre, this might be a good choice. Metering is also excellent. If you need less there's the Ultralite : http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3/ Build quality with MOTU is very good.
These are devices that are on par or better than the USB Pre, yet cost a lot less.
As for recorders, i think Vitaliy and others are absolutely right : you cannot sacrifice quality for cost, and i would definitely go with SD or Tascam and take something that's built as a tank. I like my Zoom H2 a lot, but i do have to treat it like a baby, because it will break if i don't.
In most cases, i think this holds true. At least for anything you monitor inside the computer you will have ample metering.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
Of course you won't.
As boom operator need to see levels and hear sound.
Or if you don't have him, you need to constantly control audio levels (and small LCD screen of recorder is clearly bad for this task).
I like all this gizmoz in USB interface but you can't really compare their levels to proper SD implementations.
First, they are accurate. Smooth. With peaks delay. Second, they are visible even under the sun.
Plus I want to repeat again. Preamp is generally quite cruicial element (similar to your camera, if you have only one camera).
If something happens to it - you are done. Time of all people had been wasted.
You can save money and have only cheap pen cardioid mike as backup and it'll work quite good generally.
So, preamp and recorder are last things you want to save your money at.
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Sam Mallery
Well-known member
One of the reasons that the new Sound Devices USBpre didn't generate a lot of excitement is that it isn't a silver bullet solution for budget independent film making. The better Sound Devices product for production sound is still the Mixpre.
When I think of the USBpre's place in production, I see it as a great option for mobile post production set-ups. A great way to record voice overs away from the studio. A great little mobile editing/utility interface. Not a great way for capturing sound on set.
In my opinion, you're asking for more trouble than it's worth to make your rig dependent on a computer. In stand alone mode, you are essentially just using the computer as a battery.
If you have a boom operator, they will need to turn their head away from the action to look at their level on the meters. Because the USBpre is tethered to the computer, they won't be able to adjust the level.
If you're using the Mixpre on set, the boom op can strap it to their body, and they can adjust the levels on the fly if need be. You can plug the Tape Out into the line input on one portable digital recorder, and you can plug the XLR outs into the inputs of a second portable digital recorder so you get two copies of everything. If the batteries die, you swap them out quickly.
If you don't have a sound person, you won't have to worry about setting up a computer every time you need to shoot. This is the most critical distinction for me. It's trouble enough to worry about camera, light, and talent. Throw a computer into the mix and you're going to end up over your head needlessly.
Sure, on larger productions the sound department will often use laptops and audio interfaces, but that's not what we're talking about here. This thread is about the benefits of having two channels of Sound Devices for on-set audio in budget indie productions. The Mixpre is still the much better choice here.
The one benefit of buying a USBpre that I haven't heard here yet is that in addition to being able to use it for mobile production, you will also be able to use it at home as the sound card for your editing computer.
And... as much as I'm excited about the GH2, don't forget you have a perfectly good audio forum here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?29-Audio
When I think of the USBpre's place in production, I see it as a great option for mobile post production set-ups. A great way to record voice overs away from the studio. A great little mobile editing/utility interface. Not a great way for capturing sound on set.
In my opinion, you're asking for more trouble than it's worth to make your rig dependent on a computer. In stand alone mode, you are essentially just using the computer as a battery.
If you have a boom operator, they will need to turn their head away from the action to look at their level on the meters. Because the USBpre is tethered to the computer, they won't be able to adjust the level.
If you're using the Mixpre on set, the boom op can strap it to their body, and they can adjust the levels on the fly if need be. You can plug the Tape Out into the line input on one portable digital recorder, and you can plug the XLR outs into the inputs of a second portable digital recorder so you get two copies of everything. If the batteries die, you swap them out quickly.
If you don't have a sound person, you won't have to worry about setting up a computer every time you need to shoot. This is the most critical distinction for me. It's trouble enough to worry about camera, light, and talent. Throw a computer into the mix and you're going to end up over your head needlessly.
Sure, on larger productions the sound department will often use laptops and audio interfaces, but that's not what we're talking about here. This thread is about the benefits of having two channels of Sound Devices for on-set audio in budget indie productions. The Mixpre is still the much better choice here.
The one benefit of buying a USBpre that I haven't heard here yet is that in addition to being able to use it for mobile production, you will also be able to use it at home as the sound card for your editing computer.
And... as much as I'm excited about the GH2, don't forget you have a perfectly good audio forum here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?29-Audio
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
Thanks Sam.
I don't see the problem that you described.
As you could buy cheap LiIon rechargable battery with USB output and use it with USB Pre 2. You can find link in one of the first posts in this thread.
This thing is just too new, this is the only real reason. As features are better compared to MixPre.
As for audio forum. Of course I know about it.
And I hope that soon solution will be implemented to have all audio related themes present in proper subforum (as well as in their original place).
This could add necessary boost to audio subforum. Adminitration is working on this, as I am aware.
I don't see the problem that you described.
As you could buy cheap LiIon rechargable battery with USB output and use it with USB Pre 2. You can find link in one of the first posts in this thread.
This thing is just too new, this is the only real reason. As features are better compared to MixPre.
As for audio forum. Of course I know about it.
And I hope that soon solution will be implemented to have all audio related themes present in proper subforum (as well as in their original place).
This could add necessary boost to audio subforum. Adminitration is working on this, as I am aware.