F3: Why I bought an F35 instead of going 4K with the F5/F55

Viddovation said:
Arri has some used D21 cameras available for around $10k. Keep in mind, it has an optical viewfinder and works with anamorphic lenses. Has an ARRIRAW mode too. It's a serious camera.
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Really nice motion with the mirror shutter too, and 60fps in 4:2:2 (only 30fps in 4:4:4). Dynamic Range is pretty limited by today's standards though, it's got a little over 10 stops from what I remember.
 
I love to follow the F35 experience from yet another user. Maybe there will be a bunch of you soon shooting great stuff :)

I'm four months into my F3 experience and did the same thing buying a used F3 getting my moneys worth.
Diehard Canon fans bash Sony cameras to be videoish but I love the look out of the Sonys. Clean and neutral.

Now show us some footage!
 
Nate Weaver said:
Something interesting I learned tonight...

We, like a zillion other people in the US, have been watching a lot of Downton Abbey in our household lately. tonight we watched season 1 ep 2, and every time since I learned season one was shot on the D21 I look a lot more carefully at what things look like.

While watching, I surfed around, and learned not only was it D21, but a lot of it they used the Panasonic AVC-Intra recorder to P2 cards. 100mbits AVC-Intra, the precursor to XAVC.

I'll be danged.
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IMO the D21 still the most filmic digital camera ever. Stuff from it just looks like 35mm film. More so than even the Alexa and definitely more than F35, Genesis, F3/F5/F55. I think it's a combination of mechanical shutter and the sensor that Arri developed where they tried to imitate the response of film. The caveat of the D21 and why I didn't get one when I saw how much they were selling for is that it's a native 200ISO camera. So for all effects a daylight camera. But then again so is the F35 in many ways. It really doesn't do well in low light.
If it wasn't for that there's nothing not to like about the D21. 2K RAW, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, real 4:3 sensor for real anamorphic shooting, optical viewfinder, mirror shutter and it's an Arri.


Viddovation said:
Arri has some used D21 cameras available for around $10k. Keep in mind, it has an optical viewfinder and works with anamorphic lenses. Has an ARRIRAW mode too. It's a serious camera.
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Serious indeed. Has Arri ever made a camera which wasn't serious? :)

But to record ARRIRAW you need the Arri recorder right? I think with any other recorder you would be limited to HD.



Grug said:
Really nice motion with the mirror shutter too, and 60fps in 4:2:2 (only 30fps in 4:4:4). Dynamic Range is pretty limited by today's standards though, it's got a little over 10 stops from what I remember.
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The dynamic range is not really any different from a F35 or Genesis. Keep in mind that D21 records RAW where the F35 only records in S-log.

But where the Sony or Panavision can't touch the D21 is with skin tones. I saw a test between D21 footage and some other cameras once and people though the D21 was 35mm.
 
Viddovation said:
I haven't done side by side testing yet, but I did take the F35 in a parking garage and shot out into the sun. Overexposed, but not gone. The darks are noiser than the F3 at 0db gain, but in motion the grain disappears, very useable.

If I had the clients to pay off an F55 quickly, I might have gone that route. But I think this is going to be awesome.
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Have you done any low light tests yet? This was the deal breaker for me. I was really close to pulling the trigger on a F35, but I decided to find a rental house that had one and come over to do some tests. I had to drive a little bit but it was worth it. I found that the camera is really bad in low light and to shoot night externals you absolutely need a lighting package. You can't really get away with available street lighting as you can for example with the F3. Even the AF100 does better than the F35 in this regard. This is actually pretty easy to see even from the Zacuto tests. This, plus extra weight and size, plus the camera being older and the higher maintenance costs made me pass on it.
 
I just read the Arri D-21 is 200 ASA. Also it weights 24 lbs. No thanks. Been there, down that with low ISO (with 35mm adapters) . It's not fun. I also just bought a F35 off of ebay. It has more dynamic range in the highlights than the shadows, just like film. It is rated at ISO 400. But hey man, that may make night exteriors look nice and not sodium-vapory. I like lower ISO cameras for some things - you can throw more light at a scene. And I have 2 F3s still when I need night time exteriors. Let's make magic happen. Poor contrarian Adamnojoy is at it again :)

http://chrisanthonyhamilton.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/arriflex-d-21/
 
eddavid said:
Let's make magic happen. Poor contrarian Adamnojoy is at it again :)
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WTF are you talking about? You really have a problem with handling different opinions than yours don't you?:)
By the way, I said in my post that the D21 was ISO200 and this was the negative side of it. I guess you didn't read it.
You know, you should really quit being such a F35 fanboy. I think you may be too old for that. ;)
The camera is great and I say so, but it also has disadvantages like any other camera. Just because I'm not a brainwashed fanboy and point the weaknesses of the camera (along with it's strengths) doesn't mean I don't see the good things about it:
Adamsenoj said:
I think this only applies to non S-log footage. S-log footage looks very filmic whether it is from the F35 or F3.
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So I don't know what you are on about me being a "contrarian" (Is this even a word in the English language? Maybe you meant to call me a librarian because you don't like to read [you sure seem not to be reading my posts before replying] and see that as a bad thing?).
 
LyleGorch said:
I'm beginning to believe it is a feeble single-handed attempt to keep the prices down until he can scrape together the dineiro to buy his own.
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LOL, you know that in a year the F35 will probably be even cheaper right? Specially after some of the people rushing and buying it now realizing that a full sized camera will not fit most of their run and gun needs and re-dumping them back on Ebay, for much less.

But what's it with the accusations of me being negative? Are you blind and haven't seen all the posts where I praise the camera? Or if you are realistic and have anything negative to say at all about something (and everything ALWAYS has a negative side) you are a troll? So that's all there is, either you are a fanboy or a troll?

Very open minded.


P.S. I have the dinero to buy one now if I want. Reason I didn't was because of what I already said. Even if I hadn't, I could just sell my set of CP.2s and I could buy a F35 with a full set of "awesome" nikon still lenses and still have change for other stuff. ;)
If NAB comes and nothing new is in the horizon I may go with one of the new Fs.
 
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I for one am not sure I'd go the F35 route if I had the cash but I think people that do get a great camera. To me I have an eye in the future for the new F's instead because that suits me better.

Despite that I find it intriguing the see footage and camera rigs with the F35 :)
 
Adamsenoj said:
Have you done any low light tests yet? This was the deal breaker for me. I was really close to pulling the trigger on a F35, but I decided to find a rental house that had one and come over to do some tests. I had to drive a little bit but it was worth it. I found that the camera is really bad in low light and to shoot night externals you absolutely need a lighting package. You can't really get away with available street lighting as you can for example with the F3. Even the AF100 does better than the F35 in this regard. This is actually pretty easy to see even from the Zacuto tests. This, plus extra weight and size, plus the camera being older and the higher maintenance costs made me pass on it.
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I've done some. I intend to do more.

But I don't plan to sell my F3 any time soon. I'm treating the F35, F3, and SR-R1 as a single production solution. The F3 excels in low light, and will be my go to night exterior camera when lights and budget are scarce.
 
Videovation, same here. Got my F35 a couple weeks ago. I was thinking about the F5/55 as well, but since I don't need 4K, figured F35 and good recorder partnered-up with my F3/SLOG'd is a great match.
I am so thrilled with the look and freedom of shooting to ProRes or DNxHD that I dumped my EpicX. I don't need 4K, don't shoot high-frame rates (fraught with caveats) so ended up with a pocket full of cash which I'm spending on glass! :thumbsup:
Yes, Epic is a great tool, well thought out, industrial as WWII gear, but not what I really need since I never delivered a job higher than 2K anyway. Again, NOT a bust on Red, just the F35 suites me better right now. (I will, however argue that the F35 beats Red at the highlight end...by FAR!)

My clients are/will-be thrilled with it. I've been shooting some tests, F3 comparisons, and CODEC tests. Will post as soon as I have it ready.

Vation, I am curious why you chose the SR recorder over some of the others? Not suggestion it was a bad choice, just wondering?

Adam, I'm sure that most purchasers of F35's don't intend to shoot street scenes at night w/o light package. If/when they do, should probably reach for a C300 or F3. :beer:
 
Viddovation said:
I've done some. I intend to do more.

But I don't plan to sell my F3 any time soon. I'm treating the F35, F3, and SR-R1 as a single production solution. The F3 excels in low light, and will be my go to night exterior camera when lights and budget are scarce.
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This is a very smart move!
You have a F35 for day scenes where the camera looks absolutely stunning if shot S-log and I feel has a very filmic look, arguably the best and most filmic look from all Sonys. Apart from maybe just the F65 which I haven't seen enough of to truly judge yet.
You have a F3 with S-log for night exteriors and you are not even limited to 24fps like most recording to a Hyperdeck or similar device because you have the SR-R1 to record slow motion. I think you have a very nice package. I probably would rather go with what you have than a single Alexa. Not only because you are still only at about half the price of an used Alexa, but also because you can easily do a two camera shot with the F3 and F35 and you have pretty much all areas covered.
 
LeavingTheCandy said:
Adam, I'm sure that most purchasers of F35's don't intend to shoot street scenes at night w/o light package. If/when they do, should probably reach for a C300 or F3. :beer:
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Sure. If you have a full grip truck and crew to light, it's then a moot point and the F35 will look as stunning at night as it does during the day. No question there.
 
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LeavingTheCandy said:
Vation, I am curious why you chose the SR recorder over some of the others? Not suggestion it was a bad choice, just wondering?
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I looked into the SR-R1 because it has capabilities no other recorder has when used with the F3, and because it could be made to dock to the F35, and could be advertised as a production grade replacement to the SRW-1 the F35 originally shipped with.

I actually executed and purchased it because I ran across an amazing deal on one just barely used. I paid less than $4000 for it, less that $6000 when you include the purchase of the SR-D1 card reader.

The SR-R1 can do a number a things that most, if not all other recorders don't:
*1080p slomo with F3 at 60p
*1080p slomo variable frame rate 17-60p with F3.
*Can record matching filenames on F3 that the camera records to SxS.
*Can record all camera metadata on F3.
*10bit RGB 444 recording with F3 and F35.
*12bit RGB 444 recording with F35.
*Can record two camera streams at once to a single recorder (advertised for 3D recording).

Additionally, the SR-R1 has extra audio inputs, giving either camera a total of 4 XLR audio inputs, or even more using AES over BNC.
 
Viddovation, I had the impression the SR-R1 was Sony's way to replace the heavy SWR1 which many people complained about for the F35. Does it have the same level of integration with the cameras as the SWR1? By your post I somehow get the idea it doesn't.
 
Adamsenoj said:
Viddovation, I had the impression the SR-R1 was Sony's way to replace the heavy SWR1 which many people complained about for the F35. Does it have the same level of integration with the cameras as the SWR1? By your post I somehow get the idea it doesn't.
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Sony had originally planned an SR-R3 that was intended to be the F35-docking SRMemory replacement to the SRW1. They showed it under glass at IBC one year I think. But there wasn't enough demand is my understanding.

Hardware wise the SR-R1 has everything needed to handle the special features of the F35 (I think), but there are caveats.

One is, it doesn't natively dock to the camera.

Two is, the current firmware doesn't support the high frame rate and variable frame rate options of the F35. So no, not so much integration. But I'm still quite pleased with it. Would be great if they did a firmware update though.
 
Possibly. The OB-1 and Codex Onboard recorders may support it too, but those are high end items.

It's worth noting that Sony put a new firmware update for the SR-R1 on Jan 28th 2013 - just a little over a week ago - and the prior firmware update came out around December 20th. So there's still active product development. Just don't know if they'll spend any time on us F35 users.
 
Given that they probably want people to move to the F65 or F55, I would doubt much more development would happen to the F35. But you never know. There's still hope I would say.

Changing a bit the subject, I wonder how many of these cameras Sony actually sold. For the F65 so far I have heard a number around 400 units. I wonder about the F35. On one side the F65 is much cheaper than the F35 was, so the F65 may be selling more. On another side when the F35 came out it was pretty much alone in this segment since you can't buy a Genesis. So it may have sold more. Hard to say.
 
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