C200: Why does everyone think the C200 doesn't have TC output?

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
Buckling down into integrating the Sound Devices Mix-Pre 3 into my workflow with both the XT-3 and my C200. We've all heard that the C200 "doesn't have TC i/o like the C300 MKII does", right? Only half right. If you look at page 92 of the owners manual, you'll see that the C200 outputs TC over HDMI AND SDI! I knew about HDMI, but I didn't know it would output TC via SDI as well? So now the question is, SDI is a digital signal and besides taking in TC via HDMI Micro, the Mix Pre 3 utilizes Aux input to take in TC to sync to via it's 3.5mm input. So the questions are:

1. Does the Canon C200 actually transfer TC to the Mix Pre 3 via HDMI? (I suspect not as the SD website only mentions the C100 and says that it doesn't work?) If so, does the HDMI rec trigger also pass through, allowing the C200 to stop and start the Mix Pre 3?
2. Can the Mix Pre 3 Aux in via 3.5mm take TC in from the C200s SDI out? (I don't know, but I plan on trying it to see as I cannot find anything on the web from anyone who has tried this) Unfortunately I got rid of all of my miles of SDI cable when I bought the C100 MKI so I am going to have to order a cheap one to test this.

Anyone know if either of these will work with the C200 into the Mix Pre 3/6? I believe the Canon's SDI only outputs a digital signal and the Mix Pre 3 Aux input only takes an analog signal but neither manual gets this granular about the details.

I'll report back on this when the cable arrives.
 
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I’d guess the SDI timecode isn’t going to come through because it’s digitally encoded in the SDI signal, but I don’t know that for sure. Sure would be nice if it did work tho.
 
SDI timecode (as specified by SMPTE RP 188) is embedded in the SDI video signal as ancillary data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_data
In this format, the timecode is digital information that it is embedded in the digital video stream in the horizontal or vertical blanking area of the frame. Some additional explanation of this can be found in this document: https://plurainc.com/downloads/faq-...ry-timecode-atc-according-to-smpte-12m-2/file

The MixPre's AUX input is expecting LTC timecode, which encodes the time information as an analog audio signal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_timecode

If you're curious, you can actually generate an LTC audio file here if you want to hear what it sounds like:
http://elteesee.pehrhovey.net

Unfortunately, you can't convert an SDI video signal into an LTC timecode audio signal with a passive converter. You would need an SDI timecode dis-embedder to accomplish this, which is a device with an SDI video input that is capable of reading the ancillary timecode information from the SDI video stream. The timecode dis-embedder would then take this digital time information from the SDI input and use it to produce an LTC timecode audio signal and send it out via an analog audio output (using a digital to analog convert. There are some devices that do this, but they tend to be kind of expensive (and many are rackmount units that are not so portable).

One other potential point of confusion, is that even though LTC timecode is an analog audio signal, you will occasionally see BNC connectors and coaxial cables (as used in SDI cables) used for transmit LTC timecode. Use of BNC connectors for LTC timecode is pretty common on a lot of cameras, some timecode generators, and some audio recorders. Other connectors are also used for LTC timecode including specialized LEMO connectors and more common audio connectors (XLR, 1/4" TRS, 3.5mm, etc.). It is possible to use passive adapters to interconnect different devices that work with LTC timecode (since they all carry the same analog LTC audio signal). But timecode embedded in SDI video signals is a whole different beast.

Anyway, so the SDI output on the C200 won't be all that useful. But it seems like the timecode embedded on the HDMI output might work (you'd need to enable HDMI timecode output through the C200 menu). The MixPre works with HDMI timecode from other Canon cameras, so unless there's something funky about the C200, I'm not sure why it wouldn't work.

One potential issue to keep in mind is that the C200 is capable of outputting a 2160p60 video signal over HDMI (which requires HDMI 2.0 support). I'm not sure if the HDMI input on the MixPre is HDMI 2.0 capable though, so it's possible that the MixPre might not be able to recognize the HDMI video signal in that format. So it might be best to set the C200 HDMI output to 1080p when recording 2160p50 or 2160p60.
 
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davedv said:
SDI timecode (as specified by SMPTE RP 188) is embedded in the SDI video signal as ancillary data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_data
In this format, the timecode is digital information that it is embedded in the digital video stream in the horizontal or vertical blanking area of the frame. Some additional explanation of this can be found in this document: https://plurainc.com/downloads/faq-...ry-timecode-atc-according-to-smpte-12m-2/file

The MixPre's AUX input is expecting LTC timecode, which encodes the time information as an analog audio signal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_timecode

If you're curious, you can actually generate an LTC audio file here if you want to hear what it sounds like:
http://elteesee.pehrhovey.net

Unfortunately, you can't convert an SDI video signal into an LTC timecode audio signal with a passive converter. You would need an SDI timecode dis-embedder to accomplish this, which is a device with an SDI video input that is capable of reading the ancillary timecode information from the SDI video stream. The timecode dis-embedder would then take this digital time information from the SDI input and use it to produce an LTC timecode audio signal and send it out via an analog audio output (using a digital to analog convert. There are some devices that do this, but they tend to be kind of expensive (and many are rackmount units that are not so portable).

One other potential point of confusion, is that even though LTC timecode is an analog audio signal, you will occasionally see BNC connectors and coaxial cables (as used in SDI cables) used for transmit LTC timecode. Use of BNC connectors for LTC timecode is pretty common on a lot of cameras, some timecode generators, and some audio recorders. Other connectors are also used for LTC timecode including specialized LEMO connectors and more common audio connectors (XLR, 1/4" TRS, 3.5mm, etc.). It is possible to use passive adapters to interconnect different devices that work with LTC timecode (since they all carry the same analog LTC audio signal). But timecode embedded in SDI video signals is a whole different beast.

Anyway, so the SDI output on the C200 won't be all that useful. But it seems like the timecode embedded on the HDMI output might work (you'd need to enable HDMI timecode output through the C200 menu). The MixPre works with HDMI timecode from other Canon cameras, so unless there's something funky about the C200, I'm not sure why it wouldn't work.

One potential issue to keep in mind is that the C200 is capable of outputting a 2160p60 video signal over HDMI (which requires HDMI 2.0 support). I'm not sure if the HDMI input on the MixPre is HDMI 2.0 capable though, so it's possible that the MixPre might not be able to recognize the HDMI video signal in that format. So it might be best to set the C200 HDMI output to 1080p when recording 2160p50 or 2160p60.
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Ha ha, I recall what LTC sounds like from the analog days of 3/4" and Beta SP, its like hearing a modem or fax machine tone. Thanks Dave, this is very useful information and confirms what I suspected. Wish they would have given the analog LTC output of the C300 MKII to the C200, it appears this output is really only useful for stand alone recorders like the Atomos. I bought a full size HDMI to micro HDMI cable to try just what you allude to, seeing if the C200 will talk to the Mix Pre 3 via the HDMI input. Fortunately you can set up the outputs to 1080 when shooting UHD so that part is good. Just not sure if the protocol/handshake from the C200 to the Mix Pre 3 will work and if so, if the HDMI record trigger signal will work. Same questions for the XT-3 really. Until I try them, I won't know. So frustrating, I got the Mix Pre 3 a week ago and am on editing deadlines so I can't even take it out and explore it until next week. I've watched quite a few YT videos and read the manual, this little mixer/recorder is deep and has a lot of capabilities.

Another interesting fact, I looked through the menus and the Mix Pre 3 and the XT-3 both support time of day TC, but the $7,500.00 "more professional" C200 doesn't. Jeez Canon, get with the program. If you don't have timecode i/o at all really, then why not give the C200 the ability to do time of day at least? Yes, you can manually set the TC to the time of day and hit go, but then your 1:00 pm becomes 13:00:00:00, etc. which is dumb, but better than nothing I guess?

I may still buy a few of the Tentacles or LockIts if I can't get this all to work but more cables, batteries, things hanging off of cameras, etc. is never a good thing if you can avoid it. OTOH, having those would make either camera work well with the Mix Pre 3 for run & gun type shoots where my producing partner or myself can play audio mixer/boom op. Cableless TC would be handy.
 
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Get yourself some tentacles, they are the easiest smallest way to go when working with a C200 and mix pre. When I got my mix pre 6 I bought a couple tentacles. I slap one on my C300 mk 2 and pop one into the Mix pre and I’m good to go. The phone set up with the tenacles is great, I ususally just set the frame rate and phone time of day in the app and I’m done.
 
Mark Smith said:
Get yourself some tentacles, they are the easiest smallest way to go when working with a C200 and mix pre. When I got my mix pre 6 I bought a couple tentacles. I slap one on my C300 mk 2 and pop one into the Mix pre and I’m good to go. The phone set up with the tenacles is great, I ususally just set the frame rate and phone time of day in the app and I’m done.
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Good to hear Mark, I may do that. When you bought your Tentacles, did you consider the Nanos or any of the other small TC generators in the market or just went straight for the Tentacles?
 
How do you get timecode from the MixPre3 to the Arri Amira which doesn't have a 3.5mm input (unless the headphone jack counts?) or HDMI?

I have the MixPre3 and the lack of BNC makes me think perhaps I need a MixPre10 or 633.
 
I've found that the best way to use the Mixpre 3 timecode is to just feed it to the recorder with a small lockit style box. I use the TimeCode Systems UltraSync One that automatically sync by wifi. One of the Ultrasyncs is set-up as the base transmitter and the others are set-up as the receivers. I just turn them all on and have them attached and feeding timecode to my cameras and recorder. You need a 3.5mm adapter for the mixpre 3, but you can get a bnc to trs adapter pretty cheaply.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
How do you get timecode from the MixPre3 to the Arri Amira which doesn't have a 3.5mm input (unless the headphone jack counts?) or HDMI?

I have the MixPre3 and the lack of BNC makes me think perhaps I need a MixPre10 or 633.
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Since the Mix Pre 3 doesn't generate it's own TC, you would want a pair of Tentacle Sync Es and this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D5SR3VH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
One Tentacle Sync E will be the TC master generator and feed it into your Mix Pre 3 and the other will read it and output the TC for your Amira. Easy.
 
One of the nice things about no longer relying on the audio device as the master time code device is that you no longer have to actually have a sound guy to sync up cameras. Sometimes I run with an external sound recorder and sometimes I don't. By using these wirelessly connected LTC feeds, like the tentacles or the ultrasync one, my process for syncing cameras doesn't change rather I have an audio recorder or not.
 
Is there an easy workflow to sync up C200 Raw footage (or mp4) with Tentacle audio TC in Premiere Pro? I thought it wasn’t supported natively?
 
AlkaliDigital said:
Is there an easy workflow to sync up C200 Raw footage (or mp4) with Tentacle audio TC in Premiere Pro? I thought it wasn’t supported natively?
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You utilize the free, included Tentacle Sync Studio program, it's pretty easy. I suggest you watch this. AVID and Resolve support the LTC audio track as TC natively, Premiere and FCP don't so you do this and export an XML from the Tentacle program to import to Premiere or FCP X

 
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We ordered three of the Tentacle Sync E, two hotshoe mounting brackets, a Tentacle to BNC for use with the C300 MKII/FS7, Tentacle to Sound Devices TA-5 for when we want to hand one to a sound mixer. I'll report back on how they work once they arrive and we can use them on a few shoots. It'll be nice to have the Mix Pre 3, XT-3 and C200 all tied together with matching time code.
 
Is there any chance the Tentacle can read the timecode from the C200’s BNC?

I just had my first audio gig yesterday and jammed my Zoom F4 from the DP’s FS7 and now I love the idea of utilizing timecode. I tested the BNC out of the camera on the F4 and it couldn’t read.
 
Dustin Svehlak said:
Is there any chance the Tentacle can read the timecode from the C200’s BNC?

I just had my first audio gig yesterday and jammed my Zoom F4 from the DP’s FS7 and now I love the idea of utilizing timecode. I tested the BNC out of the camera on the F4 and it couldn’t read.
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Read page one of this thread Dustin, not going to work. That C200 TC output is digital, embedded in an HD/2K video signal and is designed for Atomos and other external video recorders. Audio devices are looking for an analog LTC track which the C200 doesn't provide (C300 MKII does, and probably the FS7 does). You're thinking backwards, there is no need or reason that the C200 has to be the timecode master. The Tentacle Sync E is a master or receiver so there is no need for the C200 to serve as the master. Record the Tentacle Sync E output into the 3.5mm audio CH 3/4 on the C200. Hook up another Tentacle to whatever other device you are using that you want it to match to. If that device has it's own TC generator (Any non Mix Pre SD mixer/recorder that a pro sound mixer would be using, for instance) and that device can be the TC master. If you are using a second or third device and none of them have a TC generator than the Tentacle itself serves as the TC master.

You have to really think out how they work. I highly suggest you watch the Curtis Judd video I posted on the first page and all of this will make sense.

The Zoom F4 has TC i/o via it's BNC so you could have ran a cable to the FS7 and your Zoom could have been TC master or vice versa, you could have ran out a BNC TC from the FS7 to your zoom and the camera could have served as master. Or you could use the Tentacles with the FS7 see here https://tentaclesync.zendesk.com/hc...4308145-Sony-PXW-FS7-and-Tentacle-Sync-Setup-

That's the beauty of the Tentacles, they can work with the lowliest mirrorless or DSLR all of the way up to an Alexa or Venice. And they can be used in several different ways. That's why I just had to buy three of them, just too helpful and useful not to have them as I am always shooting different cameras with different crews, mostly with a pro sound mixer but often without.
 
PD,

Forgive me but I did read the first page, just didn't know if the Tentacle was capable of the "de-embedding" that someone mentioned. Wishful thinking on my part! lol. and yes, I was able to use the FS7 as my "master" timecode and then "slaved" my F4 successfully. The only thing I wasn't aware of was that when I power cycle my F4, it will lose the timecode and so I had to jam it again. It would be nice to be able to just jam a Tentacle from the camera and then I can re-jam my F4 without bothering the DP.

I read up on the Tentacle this morning and it sounds really great. Reading about the software it sounds cumbersome but actually watching a demo of how it creates an XML file is really streamlined and easy. I look forward to your thoughts on the product and may pick one up myself for future jobs!
 
Dustin Svehlak said:
PD,

Forgive me but I did read the first page, just didn't know if the Tentacle was capable of the "de-embedding" that someone mentioned. Wishful thinking on my part! lol. and yes, I was able to use the FS7 as my "master" timecode and then "slaved" my F4 successfully. The only thing I wasn't aware of was that when I power cycle my F4, it will lose the timecode and so I had to jam it again. It would be nice to be able to just jam a Tentacle from the camera and then I can re-jam my F4 without bothering the DP.

I read up on the Tentacle this morning and it sounds really great. Reading about the software it sounds cumbersome but actually watching a demo of how it creates an XML file is really streamlined and easy. I look forward to your thoughts on the product and may pick one up myself for future jobs!
Click to expand...

Are you leaving the Tentacle attached? Ideally, you would have a tentacle on each piece of gear that needs TC and it stays on there the entire time. On most pieces of pro gear, if you're working that way there is no need to purposefully "re-jam" even after power cycling or switching back and forth from slow-mo to real time with a camera. The gear should automatically grab the signal and jam. Are you just hooking up a Tentacle to a piece of gear, jamming it and then removing it and repeating that with each piece of gear?
 
Tenacles are tiny and will run for 24 hours. The practice is to leave them attached to the recorder or camera they are feeding.
 
I use tentacles with my C300 and Mix pre 6 . The advantage of the C300 is thatit has a TC port that is bi directional so either TC in or out. I set the T C to in on the camera and strap on a tenacle to feed tc to the camera. I set another tentacle to feed TC to my. Mix pre 6 and I’m good to go . I edit in FCPX and it reads the TC in the embedded audio track of the Mix pre files just fine.
I suppose the question would be whether the NLE software would read tc files recorded to C200 audio track the same way as it reads TC in the mix pre audio files .
 
Mark Smith said:
I use tentacles with my C300 and Mix pre 6 . The advantage of the C300 is thatit has a TC port that is bi directional so either TC in or out. I set the T C to in on the camera and strap on a tenacle to feed tc to the camera. I set another tentacle to feed TC to my. Mix pre 6 and I’m good to go . I edit in FCPX and it reads the TC in the embedded audio track of the Mix pre files just fine.
I suppose the question would be whether the NLE software would read tc files recorded to C200 audio track the same way as it reads TC in the mix pre audio files .
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Hey Mark:

A few questions for you?

1. I just played with the Mix Pre 3 for the first time. I am supposed to be at a Go To Meeting tomorrow and the organizer wants to use three mics for a big group so I figured I would give the Mix Pre USB streaming a try. In Basic Mode, super easy, hooked it up to my MBP, routed audio from USB in, opened up Soundtrack Pro and there it was. But when I switch over the Mix Pre 3 to Advanced mode, it seems like everything that was working in Basic mode doesn't work in Advanced and I am a bit lost. Do you have a recommendation on a YouTube video that walks you through a typical audio for video setup? or did you just figure it out via trial and error? In advanced I was getting signal on the meters okay but couldn't get any action on the headphones, then too much, feedback, then I just went back to Basic mode. The manual tells you what everything does but it doesn't seem to walk you through step by step on how set up in Advanced mode for a typical A for V setup. I know what most of the settings are supposed to do, I know audio pretty well but I am having a bit of a challenge with routing and monitoring.

2. I could be wrong but I believe that the Mix Pre 3/6 takes in LTC through the Aux in 3.5mm but they actually embed it on the Metadata TC track, the same way their bigger brother SD recorders would. That's probably why FCP X can recognize it without you using the Tentacle software? I don't think FCP X will be able to read the TC from the C200 because it will just be LTC recorded onto one of the audio tracks and FCP X lacks a setting to read Aux TC track like Resolve and AVID can. I haven't tried it yet since my Tentacles don't arrive until next week but I'll be surprised if FCP X can read LTC recorded on an audio track. I believe what the Tentacle Studio software does is embed the LTC audio track to the dedicated TC space in the Metadata stream, the same way that your Mix Pre 6 is doing it.
 
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