GH2 Why do we need a GH3? Isn't the GH2 enough? What should Panasonic do for GH3?

[ickejohannes]

BOT Here's a reason why we need a GH3:



It's a dimly lit white wall slightly out of focus shot in smooth black and white with the Voigtländer 25mm wide open (Sedna AQ1 settings). I call it "the horror". Color sometimes hides it a little, but the green and magenta banding in dimly lit areas (such as skin hit by fill light only) is maybe even a little worse.

Sorry, just realized that dvxuser compressed the frame grab. Here it is at full resolution:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3i7AFYgpSBBNmlUcTNyYXBqcTQ

 

[Per Lichtman]

@ickejohannes Videos like that are part of the reason so many people are excited about the Blackmagic Cinema camera. Hard to get that sort of banding when recording at a higher color depth.

 

[Kholi]

Sincerely, I really really love the GH2 (hacked). It's an amazing little tool that I feel like I can use to get what I need when there isn't enough money, but there's always... ALWAYS worry involved. Between banding and other issues/workarounds, it's never exactly worry free.

So, yeah, banding and all that included, that's why I'm standing at the top of the pile to get a Magic Cam. I've heard some pretty interesting things from a fairly trusted source about a GH3, and I think if that holds up then a lot of GH2 owners that can't go to the Magic Cam will be very happy stepping up to the GH3. I need to have the confidence without a hack, without the banding, so on and so forth... it's just too stressful.

 

[Per Lichtman]

@kholi What is causing the grief for you? I normally test a setting extensively before using it on location with the most demanding material I can and the exact same memory card(s) I will be using on site. On the shoots where I did that, I did not once have a nasty surprise. It is only when you are changing things a lot that there can be issues.

Also, if you use 1 settings for the shoot and make sure to flash earlier in the day, then that is one less thing to worry about.

I find it to be very, very stable if you take the time to do a lot of prep and don't just jump on the latest hack all the time.

Nonetheless, I do not think most people want to have to do that testing, so I think it is good to have other options that are pre-configured.

 

[Kholi]

@kholi What is causing the grief for you? I normally test a setting extensively before using it on location with the most demanding material I can and the exact same memory card(s) I will be using on site. On the shoots where I did that, I did not once have a nasty surprise. It is only when you are changing things a lot that there can be issues.

Also, if you use 1 settings for the shoot and make sure to flash earlier in the day, then that is one less thing to worry about.

I find it to be very, very stable if you take the time to do a lot of prep and don't just jump on the latest hack all the time.

Nonetheless, I do not think most people want to have to do that testing, so I think it is good to have other options that are pre-configured.

Mmmn... I've used the GH2 a ton for pretty decent jobs. I know it inside, out. There are things that you can't really avoid, though.

Monitoring 720/60
Random patch Glitches
ISO bug (remembering to adjust ISO whenever you turn the camera on and off again, it is an absolute must)
Two or three other things

You can't predict a random drop out just because the patch wants to drop out (and we're talking about interviews in front of a very simple backdrop).

It's good and all, really really good. These days if it's not Epic it's GH2, but the banding, all that other stuff. Well, again,that's why I'm moving to Magic Cam.

 

[Per Lichtman]

Monitoring - completely true.
Random patch glitches - other than flickering shadows, I simply do not get those when I test properly. There are certain combinations I know will run the risk of locking up a card at the end of a take, and I either avoid those or bring more cards. But I've found everything to be rather predictable IF I tested sufficiently.
ISO bug - shoot even ISOs and you never have to deal with it. Not settings or hack related.
Random drop out - does not happen when I do the testing I mentioned.

The only time I have trouble is when I use a setting I did not test sufficiently or when I do not use a sufficiently fast memory card. I shoot everything from deep DOF exteriors to macro, from close-ups of dancing and martial arts to interviews and music videos. I simply do not run into issues when I test sufficiently, except for the shadow flicker that I mentioned. That is unpredictable, but generally not all settings related.

That is why I was asking - if you are having those issues, it would be worth having community test for them so that they can become predictable. I haven't shot Epic, but I have shot Scarlet and there are tons of reasons I love using it. I also loved my very brief chance to try out the C500 in person. I agree that there are several things those cameras can do that the GH2 cannot and I would be surprised if they GH3 changed most of them.

Still, I won't complain if they do.

 

[Kholi]

ISO bug - shoot even ISOs and you never have to deal with it. Not settings or hack related.

Not true. You have to set it every time you turn the camera on again. Test it.

The drop outs can't be predicted or tested for in an environment that demands consistant results. At least not using the really high bitrate patches.

It is what it is.

 

[Per Lichtman]

Nope - not an issue if you are shooting ISO 200, 400, 800, 1600, etc. Only have to do that if you are using 160, 320, 640, etc. at all. Feel free to demonstrate the issue, but if you read through the threads, other people have confirmed what I am saying here.

If you are using those modes, then yes, not only do you have to do it every time you turn it on, but also each time you come back from standby.

As far as the predictability, if you can't predict the behavior under non-demanding conditions, you may want to change your testing methods or your memory cards. I simply do not encounter the unpredictability you are referring to and I know you are a veteran user as well so I find this a little confusing.

Which cards are you using?

 

[TheDingo]

Not true. You have to set it every time you turn the camera on again. Test it.

The drop outs can't be predicted or tested for in an environment that demands consistant results. At least not using the really high bitrate patches.

The ISO bug is not a big deal if you remember the simple work around.

As for drop-outs, I've shot a hundred hours with the Quantum 100 patch and so far haven't experienced any drop-outs.

The GH2 glitch that I have to live with is minor image aliasing that pops up from time to time, but it's fairly subtle.

 

[Kholi]

ISO bug may not be a big deal for you, but it is for me. When I shoot, I have to just shoot. There are people sitting in chairs behind me waiting to see what I'm doing with their money. Fiddling is bad, and in those cases I don't even remember to fiddle, I'm concerned with things that I should be concerned with: lighting, performance, so on and so forth.

An ISO bug is not high on my list. Nor is a monitoring hang up that turns footage into interlaced material if you don't remember
That you can't monitor that mode.

As far as freezing goes, try rolling more than ten minutes at a time (average or 15 to 17 minutes actually) and see how consistent it is. With lower bitrate patches it's probably not as bad. But even one recording error popping up at two minutes into a roll, having to say cut, then people wondering what's going on sucks.

It's also pretty fun in post when those cards can't be recognized by an NLE and you have to link the spanned files
manually, export, then sync sound for multicam projects.

It sounds like I don't like using the camera. On the contrary, I think it's the best bang for buck option out there under high end cameras... If yore willing to put up with the handful or more of issues.

Oh, and as far as cards to I have 64gb Sandisk extremes. Pretty much the best you can get to run any of the patches.

 

[TheDingo]

ISO bug may not be a big deal for you, but it is for me.

The work around is so simple, but yes it's possible to forget things when you are juggling a hundred other details in your head with a cranky client waiting to be wow'd on set. ( the smart ones realize that pretty much all of the "magic" happens in post, so the actual shooting can be a bit of a let down )

As far as freezing goes, try rolling more than ten minutes at a time (average or 15 to 17 minutes actually) and see how consistent it is.

With all of the interviews I shoot ( I've shot about a dozen with the Quantum 100 patch ) I just let the camera roll for the entire interview, so my footage is one long 30 - 60 minute video clip. To date I have yet to experience ANY glitches or frame-drops using the Quantum 100 patch. Which is why I'm nervous about trying other patches. ( i.e. Why fix something that isn't broken? )

It's also pretty fun in post when those cards can't be recognized by an NLE and you have to link the spanned files manually, export, then sync sound for multicam projects.

The only time I've ever experienced this, it was caused by the card-reader, but ever since I've standardized on the punky little $14 IoGear Reader, my cards always mount correctly, and transfers are between 2.2 - 4.3 GB per minute. Sony Vegas Pro automatically stitches all of the segments together, so I end up with one complete MTS file to edit.

 

[Kholi]

The work around is so simple, but yes it's possible to forget things when you are juggling a hundred other details in your head with a cranky client waiting to be wow'd on set. ( the smart ones realize that pretty much all of the "magic" happens in post, so the actual shooting can be a bit of a let down )

And wow'd by the same exact thing that was on the screen before. =] However, this is exactly what I mean. Not since the 35mm Adapter days have I had to fiddle so much, but in a different way. ISO bug isn't as bad as remembering to make sure the ground glass was still vibrating, but it's still something that's far off from my thought process.

Just another reason why BMC is gonna be my go to camera when the box finally arrives.

With all of the interviews I shoot ( I've shot about a dozen with the Quantum 100 patch ) I just let the camera roll for the entire interview, so my footage is one long 30 - 60 minute video clip. To date I have yet to experience ANY glitches or frame-drops using the Quantum 100 patch. Which is why I'm nervous about trying other patches. ( i.e. Why fix something that isn't broken? )

It's probably the patch I'm using. I'm on Canis Night. I thought about switching to something similar to Quantum 100 but I'm A) tired of patching cameras and B) afraid to do it too many times, bricking the camera would be a sad sad affair. You're smart not to move away from that patch.

The only time I've ever experienced this, it was caused by the card-reader, but ever since I've standardized on the punky little $14 IoGear Reader, my cards always mount correctly, and transfers are between 2.2 - 4.3 GB per minute. Sony Vegas Pro automatically stitches all of the segments together, so I end up with one complete MTS file to edit.

I noticed two weird things:

When the recording dropped out, the camera skipped an MTS value (00001, 00003 --skipping 2) and you couldn't write to the card anymore without formatting it. Talk about a waste of space...

Then, some of the folder's files, like the thumbnail file, aren't completely written. What I did not check, however, is if it's the card reader. Sometimes I transfer directly through the SD card slot on my Laptop, sometimes through a card reader. I'll check that out and see if that had anything to do with it.

I'm also using FCP, it doesn't want to recognize its own filters sometimes. So.. yeah.

 

[John Caballero]

Oh, I can't wait to hear the complaints about the "Magic Camera". And trust me, there will be many for a long while. I will eventually get one but not until they work the kinks out of the system. And for the GH3, we will know soon what will it really be.

 

[TheDingo]

Just another reason why BMC is gonna be my go to camera when the box finally arrives.

What are you doing for lenses with the BMC ?

Having such a small sensor with a Canon EF lens mount bugs me to no end, because I won't be able to use any high performance short focal length lenses. ( like the Voightlander 17.5mm f/0.95 or 25mm f/0.95, or the Olympus 12mm f/2.0 )

 

[Ian-T]

I just want to see some sample videos from that camera.

 

[Kholi]

What are you doing for lenses with the BMC ?

Having such a small sensor with a Canon EF lens mount bugs me to no end, because I won't be able to use any high performance short focal length lenses. ( like the Voightlander 17.5mm f/0.95 or 25mm f/0.95, or the Olympus 12mm f/2.0 )

Lack of M4/3 mount doesn't bother me, it's the lack of a PL mount that makes me cringe. Fairly sure at first I'll just be using my existing EF mount primes, along with the Nikons that I have. I don't own any M4/3 glass, anyway, so it's never been a big deal.

With any luck, though, I'll be one of the first Hot Rod modded Magic Cams, for PL and M4/3. (likely M4/3 mount straight to PL adapter).

I just want to see some sample videos from that camera.

To be honest, it's not going to be anything special to most people. Especially the majority of happy DSLR owners.

I'm not one of those, and I already saw plenty from John Brawley's footage to know that it's what I want to have when I can't shoot Epic etc. It's almost like... if someone can't see that from the existing footage, then it's not the camera that they're looking for.

Not sure if that makes sense.

 

[TheDingo]

Fairly sure at first I'll just be using my existing EF mount primes, along with the Nikons that I have.

So if a BMC "normal" lens is a 15mm, what's the widest Canon/Nikon lens that you own?

 

[Per Lichtman]

@Kholi I would roll back to Sedna if the lowlight performance increase is not worth the reliability issues, honestly. CM Night is great, but I tend to use it for shorter shots - if I were doing long ones in 24H, I would be using Sedna instead. It is less stressful for the camera.

I have tested Sedna Q20 C extensively with the card you are using and for a standard interview, there is no reason you should run into those errors with manual focus glass. I have not done similar CM Night testing with that card.

Here are the results of some of the testing for a fairly high detail close static environment.

http://perlichtman.com/pasdenapulse/wordpress/gh2-hack-reference/

 

[Ian-T]

To be honest, it's not going to be anything special to most people. Especially the majority of happy DSLR owners.

I'm not one of those, and I already saw plenty from John Brawley's footage to know that it's what I want to have when I can't shoot Epic etc. It's almost like... if someone can't see that from the existing footage, then it's not the camera that they're looking for.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Oh I understand what you are saying. Its "uniqueness" is not going to be apparent right away to most (viewers)...I know. What I'll be looking out for though is how it looks in high contrast scenes. I want to see that 13 stops of dynamic range capability at work.

 

[Kholi]

So if a BMC "normal" lens is a 15mm, what's the widest Canon/Nikon lens that you own?

15mm normal? That's a pretty far-off measurement. The difference between the GH2 and Magic Cam's actual recorded sensor area is near negligible. A 22~24mm is a normal in comparison to S35 (1.6).

Basically, I'm just gonna keep shooting exactly like I have been for the past few years on any camera. Only I'll reach for a 20/1.8 or, a 24/1.4, or a 28/1.4 for most material.

By the way: 11-16/2.8 and an 8-15/4

Oh I understand what you are saying. Its "uniqueness" is not going to be apparent right away to most (viewers)...I know. What I'll be looking out for though is how it looks in high contrast scenes. I want to see that 13 stops of dynamic range capability at work.

But, you did see it if you watched John's footage. The beach stuff where they're messing with the C300 is straight-up high contrast. xDDD