GH2 Why do we need a GH3? Isn't the GH2 enough? What should Panasonic do for GH3?

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OldCorpse

Rockin the Boat
I saw this quote in another thread:

John Caballero said:
Hopefully the GH3 is around the corner and of course it has to be 4K RAW, 'cause that's the future, now! For the same price as the GH2 of course. LOL!
Click to expand...

And my first thought was "but isn't the GH2, especially with the hack, already enough, do we really need a GH3 at all?". So I decided to start a thread about this, because I'm interested in other people's perspectives.

My idea is that the GH2 - with the hack - is enough for narrative work. Could the GH3 deliver more? Sure, but isn't that always the case? The point is not "can the next camera be better than the last one", because that's kinda how things are in technology. Rather, the point is that a given camera does all you need right NOW, then there really isn't a compelling reason for an upgrade. Maybe if you didn't have a GH2, you might buy a GH3, but if you already have a GH2, would you really feel the need to buy the GH3? Because, actually, no way can Panasonic deliver the capability that the hack has - and that was confirmed by a Panasonic rep, who in essence said that they are aware of the hack, but they can't duplicate it, because they have to hew to the limits of the AVCHD codec limitations, and can't simply arbitrarily change stuff. So if you get the GH3, it may very well be worse than a hacked GH2 (and for that matter the GH3 might be overall worse than the GH2 anyway - Panasonic did that before, like the GF3 being worse than the GF2), and you'll have to wait for the GH3 to get hacked (if possible) to even come close to the hacked GH2.

So the question is: isn't the GH2 enough for narrative work? Is there something about the GH2 that's a deal-breaker for you? Sure, we'd all like this or that better on the GH2, but is there anything that TODAY you say "wow, I can't use the GH2 for narrative work, I must wait to see if they fix it in GH3". So - not "nice to have", but "essential". And the second question is what would you want from Panasonic for the GH3 - assuming that Pana is listening to dvxuser, which I think they do in a way - what do you think the GH3 should have? But please, if you make a list keep in mind two things:

1)Make it realistic! Don't ask for stuff that just can't be done technologically in a small package

2)Don't ask for something that's going to push the retail MSRP price above $1K, or what it is now
 
1080-60p - Panasonic already does it in the same codec in the TM700 and TM900 at 28 mbps. It's actually quite impressive for fast motion and overcranking.
 
I expect that the GH3 will be a lot harder to hack, have the same sensor as the GX1 with some other minimal improvements. ie better VF, higher res screen.......

I don't expect clean HDMI, 10bit color, hibit rate recording or a big deference in dynamic range. I think 1080 60p is a 50/50 chance.
The only thing I think they really need to fix is the noise. There is just way too much compared to other cameras in the smiler price range.

The real question is if panasonic will make a pro still camera. If they do I don't think it will be called a GH3.
 
Probably like a lot of people I was gutted when the Scarlet fixed lens didnt materialize and for Documentary work the Scarlet x is way too bulky. For narrative work yeah its good but the point is its not professional. I was seriously thinking about a GH2 so I downloaded some original files and played it through my Flat screen TV. If you do that I defy anyone to still think the GH2 is up to professional (Broadcast) standard compared with the Scarlet X.


So I think progress needs to be made till I can use this camera as a serious tool. My main problem when I looked at footage is the unstable shakiness of it. Even if the camera is not moving the image has a jumpy feel to it that is not relaxing to look at compared to Scarlet footage (try it yourself on a large TV you'll probably agree). Also the camera needs a litte more dynamic range to remove some of the video feel to the footage. I also found compared to looking at the other DSLR's, Canon, Nikon etc the GH2 lacked a bit of the glossy filmic look instead looking a little flat and grey. (This last problem I have could well be subjective and isn't as much a problem as the two previous problems).

So what would I want and hope for in a GH3? Well I'm no expert but the main problems I mentioned could be tackled with a Global shutter or at least some relatively drastic improvement in Jello and the general stability of the image. I don't know how dynamic range can be improved but I would like to see it improved. If Red can produce a camera that has film levels of dynamic range you think some progess could be made in the prosumer world to to keep up, HDR would be nice too especially as its turning up on smart phone cameras! So maybe an improved sensor is going to be needed.

I personally don't need 4K and all the hassles of editing that involves but a better quality compression is needed to push quality forward. faster everything basically, faster processing etc......thats just part of technological progress. I would be willing to deal with larger files as computers have made a leap in dealing with it without taxing a system.

lastly you got to have an audio out socket for monitoring if you want to use this camera for professioal documentary work. Yes there are work arounds and yes you probably should be recording audio seperately but you need good audio if you want to work solo. I personally think if the new breed of handheld audio recorders can be produced in a small package then improvements could be made. But its not a deal breaker as keeping the camera compact is its strength.

The rumors I have heard about the GH3 show that panasonic has recognised it needs to work on stabalising and improving the image. If there is any company apart from RED that is listening to the users on forums like this its panasonic. Though while the GH series has the form factor we all want it needs to improve its image stability and dynamic range to be a serious contender for pro work and I think most would pay a premium to get such a camera.
 
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I own both a GH1 & GH2, and I'll probably buy a "GH3" as soon as I can get my hands on one, unless there's something really weird about its specs or pricing. And I'll keep the old cams to use as backups or 2nd cams. Compared to most prosumer video camcorders, the GH series cam bodies are dirt-cheap.

As for new features I'd expect to see on a "GH3":

- A headphone jack that supports audio monitoring during recording and playback.
- A HDMI jack that supports audio and video monitoring during recording and playback, including ETC & 720p modes.
- A HDMI jack that outputs a "normal" video signal appropriate for external recording w/o requiring special post-processing.
- Lower-noise video at all ISO settings.
- Film Modes that allow a much wider & finer range of adjustments.
- 1080p24 & 1080p60 AVCHD (v.1 or v.2) @ at least 28 megabits/sec., preferably >35mbs.
- Less rolling shutter artifacts. Even a small % improvement would be welcome.
- A external mic input that allows selecting a line-level sensitivity setting, in addition to the 4 mic levels it currently supports.
- Improved audio quality. GH1 & GH2 use "Dolby Stereo Creator" which is fairly lo-fi, and does weird things to mono sources. I'd be happy with plain old 16-bit 48khz stereo PCM?, like miniDV. If the mic input could be switched to line level, an external mixer could be used to provide clean mic preamps & other sources.
- Improved dynamic range. Again, even a small % improvement would be welcome.
- An increase in resolution & image quality in both the EVF and swivel LCD.
- No fewer manual controls (actual buttons) than the GH2 has.
- No features which require use of the touch screen.
- Allow more features to be assigned to the function buttons, and maybe add a couple more function buttons, too.
- Add a user preference to allow AF lenses (in manual focus mode) to power-up with same focus (focal plane?) setting they had when powered-off.
- A focus-assist peaking mode (either white or red edges).
- A magnify focus-assist mode even during recording. Hey, I can dream.
- Bars & tone would be nice. :-)

Given the normal advancements and/or cost reductions in technology since the GH2 was designed, I doubt any of the above would result in little or any increase of list price for the "GH3" compared to what the GH2 cost when it was new. Many of the items listed above are old-tech and essentially "free" (e.g.: headphone jack), and don't affect the form factor of the camera.

Cheers.
 
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We can all dream and post our wishes. Panasonic actually said that they appreciated and welcomed, the modifications made to their cameras (they likened the modifications to that of a turbo charged car). So leaving it accessible (backdoor) is still a major possibility.
The GH3 will offer things like a faster processor, focusing, tracking, and of course better imaging (4:2:2 please)...possibly a higher resolution (but at this moment, I doubt it). More like faster frame rates and high bit rates. I suspect they would save that for their higher end cameras like the AF line. HDMI will probably be looked into for external recording and audio monitoring... I just cant see Panasonic putting a headphone jack in...
I apologies, but there was an article where someone interview panasonic and there was a lot of insight on their thinking and regards to the GH2 and indie filmakers. Also they suggested many new improvements to look forward to in the next GH3.
Look at the GH1 to GH2 line, and you can see...even with the introduction of a GH3...the GH2 will remain a relavant camera for the upcoming years.
Thats my 2c
 
I'll keep my GH2 until the GH3 is hacked (if that's possible).

But I'd sell my GH1 and TM900 and pay serious money, if the GH3 has:

- headphone jack
- 1080/60p
- recordable HDMI out
- 28mbps
- no backsliding on GH2 features/specs (e.g, what Sony did between the VG10 and VG20)

Weathersealing and a global shutter would be nice, but are not must-haves for me to upgrade.
 
I have done 3 things all my life, and have been thinking about the exact same point you're on about, Old Corpse.

The longest I've known I've been drawing. It's what I went to college to do. All my life has been drawing. I'd like to think I'm ok at it.

Music is next, been doing that 2/3rds of my life.

Movies is new, something like 6 years only. And things show when I compare my mindset with all 3.

When it comes to movies, sure I can use most any camera, but I am limited by the tech. I'm still dependent on it. I'm still learning, and still a baby. I kinda need the gear. The developments in tech will still affect my work.

With music, I started with a 4 track akai in 1990, then to Studio Vision for MIDI and worked my way all the way up to reason and cubase being my favorite DAW. This was cubase sx3 and reason 3.0.5. I could do ANYTHING with that setup. Anything. Not one thing I wanted to do was hampered. Then they upgraded to Reason 4. And Cubase 4 and 5 I think. I didn't upgrade. In fact I was annoyed they kept going, I wanted the world to stop at Reason 3.0.5 and Cubase SX3. That was it for me. There was nothing more I needed out of a DAW.

Now when it comes to drawing, I cannot recall once in my life when I chose a kind of paper over another. Or a pen. In fact, if I'm given anything that can make a mark on anything else, I can draw to the best of my ability. It has never mattered. If I don't have an eraser I use a piece of bread. Chalk, ink, graphite, charcoal, I know how they work. I can use them. It was never an issue.

So yeah, I totally get you. If the gh2 can do it for you, there is no need to upgrade. I was 9 years old when I was learning about recording. It was really gear based then, you'd need a module to create sounds for each track. Costly. I was a kid. I couldn't buy a thing and couldn't get paid, too young. The person teaching me forbade all 3 equipment dealers in jordan to sell me anything, and gave me a small setup. He said, when there's something you want to do that you can't do with this setup, and you can explain it to me, I'll give you the gear you need.

This was the biggest favor anyone ever did me in my life. And you're the first person to make me talk about it ever, Old Corpse. The difference between buying gear and needing a feature from a tool. Watch the brand names get fuzzy once this kicks in.
 
- global shutter, it would get rid of the jello effect.
- Weather sealing.
- 1080p60.
- An external audio jack that records raw.
- clean and normal HDMI out

That said, I have no delusions that Panasonic would make the GH3 superior in video firmware/image quality to the AF100/101. That said, I wish Vitaly would hack the AF100, it could be so amazing... sigh!
 
One thing I'd like them to improve uppon is the accuracy for the camera's LCD screen. The GH2 should really have a decent screen, but its colour representation of what the camera's actually "seeing" is absolutely terrible.

Better dynamic range would be nice. They could acheive that by not increasing the megapixel count, and perhaps even decreasing it (though I highly doubt that would happen). Good clean 50/60p would be nice, and I think the market is asking for it.

A headphone jack would also be nice, as well as uncompressed (manual level) audio recording.
 
I have done 3 things all my life, and have been thinking about the exact same point you're on about, Old Corpse.

The longest I've known I've been drawing. It's what I went to college to do. All my life has been drawing. I'd like to think I'm ok at it.

Music is next, been doing that 2/3rds of my life.

Movies is new, something like 6 years only. And things show when I compare my mindset with all 3.

When it comes to movies, sure I can use most any camera, but I am limited by the tech. I'm still dependent on it. I'm still learning, and still a baby. I kinda need the gear. The developments in tech will still affect my work.

With music, I started with a 4 track akai in 1990, then to Studio Vision for MIDI and worked my way all the way up to reason and cubase being my favorite DAW. This was cubase sx3 and reason 3.0.5. I could do ANYTHING with that setup. Anything. Not one thing I wanted to do was hampered. Then they upgraded to Reason 4. And Cubase 4 and 5 I think. I didn't upgrade. In fact I was annoyed they kept going, I wanted the world to stop at Reason 3.0.5 and Cubase SX3. That was it for me. There was nothing more I needed out of a DAW.

Now when it comes to drawing, I cannot recall once in my life when I chose a kind of paper over another. Or a pen. In fact, if I'm given anything that can make a mark on anything else, I can draw to the best of my ability. It has never mattered. If I don't have an eraser I use a piece of bread. Chalk, ink, graphite, charcoal, I know how they work. I can use them. It was never an issue.

So yeah, I totally get you. If the gh2 can do it for you, there is no need to upgrade. I was 9 years old when I was learning about recording. It was really gear based then, you'd need a module to create sounds for each track. Costly. I was a kid. I couldn't buy a thing and couldn't get paid, too young. The person teaching me forbade all 3 equipment dealers in jordan to sell me anything, and gave me a small setup. He said, when there's something you want to do that you can't do with this setup, and you can explain it to me, I'll give you the gear you need.

This was the biggest favor anyone ever did me in my life. And you're the first person to make me talk about it ever, Old Corpse. The difference between buying gear and needing a feature from a tool. Watch the brand names get fuzzy once this kicks in.
 
Gary Huff said:
Weather sealing? And how many of you calling for that have had a camera body loss due to weather?
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Gary - I'm in Northern California, so I want weather sealing so that I'm less concerned about taking the camera out when there's a little fog or drizzle.

I haven't lost a camera, but I have lost some shooting opportunities.

Cheers,

Bill
 
You still haven't a lost a body, so your concern may be absolutely unwarrented.

You know what should make you less concerned? The utterly cheap pricetag.
 
- Global Shutter
- Full remote control management (X lenses zooming included)
- 108050p
- Clean HDMI Output
- More camcorder ergonomic
- Better and bigger LCD
- Weather sealed
 
jimmykorea said:
My main problem when I looked at footage is the unstable shakiness of it.
Click to expand...

Shoot with a properly stabilized hacked GH-2 and the footage looks smooth and stable. Most of the shakiness I've seen in GH-2 footage has been caused by either poor camera stabilization, or by Long GOP compression effects on camera motion. Use the right patch and the Long GOP motion problem goes away completely.

jimmykorea said:
Also the camera needs a litte more dynamic range to remove some of the video feel to the footage. I also found compared to looking at the other DSLR's, Canon, Nikon etc the GH2 lacked a bit of the glossy filmic look instead looking a little flat and grey.
Click to expand...

You MUST color grade everything you shoot in post. I keep seeing these stupid comments about how "filmic" the Canon footage is, and how much the GH-2 footage just sucks the big one, but none of these people are doing color grading in post.
 
...As for the GH-3, I hope that Panasonic and Olympus have been working together, as Olympus is launching their new E-M5 camera on February 8th, and on paper it sounds a lot like a PRO version of the GH-2.
 
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