C300: whoa, how did I miss this... is C300 mkII nearly the perfect camera?

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filmguy123

Veteran
Ok canon guys:

I know the big caveat that people talk about on the C300 mkII is lack of 60fps in 4k.

Other than that, what are the gripes with this camera? I've been exploring RED Raven, Scarlet W, Varicam LT, Sony F5, etc.

This seems to check all my boxes... correct me if I am wrong... and fill me in on any caveats I'm missing?

High Dynamic Range (15-stops - is this for real, or exaggerated claim?)
Variable Frame Rate (love Sony offerings but no VFR is a deal breaker for me. I need and want the interim 36fps, 44, etc.)
Great internal codec? (with options for even better to external recorded if needed)?
Excellent Ergos for Run'n'gun & 1 man band

The only negatives I can think of would be lack of 60p/VFR in 4k mode, internal ProRes, and...? But I can live with both of those (though if a C500 mkII hits the scenes at NAB with these features I would be compelled).

My other concern would be lowlight VS the VaricamLT or Sony A7s (I know A7s and this are apples to oranges, but still). How is the lowlight overall on this guy?

What other caveats?

Is this not pretty much the perfect camera?
 
You already have the equivalent of internal ProRes: the XF-AVC codec is 10bit intra frame compression at around 410Mbps or so… From a quality standpoint it's great. OK, so actual ProRes might have been even more convenient, but the quality of the C300 mkII's files are great.

I can edit the files directly on my Mac Pro. I don't do conversion.

This camera's high speed options aren't that great, but you have the 120fps crop mode. Apart from that you have lots of color matrix options and the possibility to customise the camera.
 
Overall it really is a great camera. Newer than the Sony F5, and already more desirable. Less pricey than the Varicam LT, partly due to cheaper media. And I think it fits on gimbals better than either of those options as well.

There are a number of nit-picky issues with the camera that will hopefully be sorted out via firmware, no deal breakers for me thus far.

I love using Red's for narrative and music videos, productions when I have a AC and data wrangler, but for most of the TV work I do clients want Arri/Sony/Canon.

Low light on the mk2 is pretty impressive if you're shooting burned in or log1. 5000 ISO in Log 1 is great is completely useable. Supposedly you can crank up the noise reduction in camera quite a bit too, but I haven't messed with that.

Log2 is great for exteriors or high ambient situations. I treat log2 like red and expose to the right as much as possible. Results are pretty great.
 
If you don't need 4K HFR, the C300 II really does everything you'll need and compares well to similar cameras. When set up with Canon Log 2, Cinema gamut, and Production (ARRI) matrix, you can apply the ARRI LUTs in PP CC and get ARRI-like color and skintones, which is amazing for $16K. As top-level classically trained DP's are discovering, Canon's PDAF auto- and manual-assisted AF is an extremely useful tool when manual-only focus pulling would be difficult or impossible. For single operators, live, and run & gun, the AF is even more useful.

Real-time editing of C300 II MXF files without transcoding is possible in FCPX (2010 MacPro with 980 GTX and 2012 MBP). Premiere Pro CC will do real-time in OSX using the OpenCL Mercury Engine (but surprisingly not with CUDA).

I'm not sure if using Canon Log vs. Canon Log 2 will produce any better results in low light. The only way this might happen is if after dropping the blacks to correct levels (and/or using a LUT), the codec was over-stressed due to noise and detail/color was lost due to the noise level being encoded. I would expect the noise level to be the same in both Canon Log and Canon Log 2, only that while in Log 2 the noise levels would be recorded at a higher luminance level vs. Log. I tested the noise reduction settings and found that it's not very strong even at the highest levels, and that the image gets a little softer. Thus, a fairly low-tech in-camera NR. If after getting blacks correct in post noise is still high, Neat Video is the way to go. The noise quality is pretty good when present though, not bad compared to ARRI (currently the nicest noise).
 
What are the odds we will see a free or paid firmware update for 4K @ 60p with VFR and HD @ 120p no crop sensor?

Sounds like the VaricamLT will beat the C300 in lowlight, but C300 still performs quite nice

Price is an issue, despite how GREAT this camera is, in many ways (correct me where I'm wrong here, if I am) it's an FS7 where you trade good slow motion for great ergos, and a bit better color science. Ok, cool. Except it costs twice as much.
 
filmguy123 said:
What are the odds we will see a free or paid firmware update for 4K @ 60p with VFR and HD @ 120p no crop sensor?

Sounds like the VaricamLT will beat the C300 in lowlight, but C300 still performs quite nice

Price is an issue, despite how GREAT this camera is, in many ways (correct me where I'm wrong here, if I am) it's an FS7 where you trade good slow motion for great ergos, and a bit better color science. Ok, cool. Except it costs twice as much.
Click to expand...

We use the FS700, A7S, and A7S II as well. While Sony is slowly improving skintones and color, Canon is still much better/more reliable, especially in challenging lighting situations (mixed, artificial, etc.). That's why we held off on the FS7 waiting for the C300 II. The FS7 doesn't have PDAF- that's reason alone to justify the extra cost for the C300 II. Blurry shots are worthless. ARRI-level color is something many non-ARRI cameras shoot for. The latest FS7 examples posted with ARRI LUTs etc., still don't look as good as the C300 II from what I've seen so far.

4K 60- no one knows the real reason it's not available. The thermal argument isn't really valid. The fan can be set to be disabled during recording. For 4K 60 a tradeoff could be the fan must run continuously and/or recording time must be limited. I suspect a business decision for the 4K 60 omission. Which means it could be made available via a firmware upgrade if Canon chose to do so for business reasons (vs. technical).
 
From TM 2-23-16
Q:We will have the Canon factory reps here tomorrow.
Do you have any questions you'd like to pose to them?

A:
Q1: What are the C300 MKII LUT capabilities?
Can a user shoot in Log and monitor Rec 709?


Q2: 4K 60p
Is the camera capable of 4K 60p in future firmware?


Q3: Price
Will we see a price reduction of the C300 MKII after NAB 2016?

A:
Q1. Yes you can shoot in log and monitor in Rec709 for Television


Q2. No The understanding is the hardware will not be able to travel that upgrade path


Q3 No this camera is still the "new" model.
 
This is an all rounder camera. Have this camera and you can shoot different genres easily. Like all good things in life, there will be some weakness. The weakness of this camera is no 4K 60p. And the price is 16K. However if you have the clientele than it is a no brainer.

You can see some of the low light shots here starting from 2.42. There were some street lights in the background but it was very dark and all night stuff shot at t1.4 with CNE-24mm

The battery lasts for a long time. Put couple of batteries in your pocket and you are good to last the entire day. No need for heavy V lock bricks. However, that dual battery charger is big.

These days with tight budgets when you are shooting one man, this camera will be much more convenient than the others you are considering. The files are lovely. Your clients will love it.
 
Matt Turner said:
Canons words and pricing show they clearly think it's not in the same bracket as an FS7.

Problem is a lot of the market does, so most think it's overpriced, even though it's probably not.
Click to expand...

It's fair, and it's a tough one. It does have some very compelling features not in the FS7 bracket, but 2x the price compelling - depends. I think tough sell but all for a few. (Yet I admit the ergos, etc. are so compelling it has me thinking).

I get it though. The lines between an 8K FS7, a 16.5K varicam, and a 35K Arri Alexa Mini/Amira are really starting to get blurry...
 
Christian - thank you so much for posting that.

Q2 and 3 were my two biggest questions on this camera, and that answered both.

I mean, neither of them were at all what I wanted to hear, but I'm glad I know :) Ha!

Next hope = C500 mkII BUTTT I hear they are changing directions on the body style, which I fear would make it less run-n-gun worthy... but we shall see! I'd rather pay a little more to get some really key additional features anyway.
 
Canon always positioned the C300 mkII as a camera with "moderate 4k capabilities". Obviously this is with the C500 mkII in mind—a "proper" 4k camera, possibly with an 8k sensor to get to 4k the same way the C300 gets to HD.

If 4k60 is to be considered a "high end" 4k feature, they are probably saving it for the C500 mkII.

I still think the C300 mkII will drop in price when the C500 mkII is out. But if NAB just gives us a glimpse of the C500 mkII, then the C300 mkII can stay at its current price until fall/winter.
 
ChristianMoriarty said:
From TM 2-23-16
Q3: Price
Will we see a price reduction of the C300 MKII after NAB 2016?

Q3 No this camera is still the "new" model.
Click to expand...
Which means, "yes, you will" (after it ceases being a "new model").

The time frame is probably going to be around/at C500 MKII actual release, rather than an announcement. I.E., late summer/early fall.
 
filmguy123 said:
Variable Frame Rate (love Sony offerings but no VFR is a deal breaker for me. I need and want the interim 36fps, 44, etc.)
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Which of the current Sony offerings don't do VFR? The Sony F5 (and I believe the FS7 too) does 4k 1-60fps, and 2k/HD 1-180fps in XAVC. It's only the SR codecs in HD that won't do variable frame rates. I shoot mine at 35fps, 40fps, 22fps, 12fps etc. all the time.
 
Grug said:
Which of the current Sony offerings don't do VFR? The Sony F5 (and I believe the FS7 too) does 4k 1-60fps, and 2k/HD 1-180fps in XAVC. It's only the SR codecs in HD that won't do variable frame rates. I shoot mine at 35fps, 40fps, 22fps, 12fps etc. all the time.
Click to expand...

I just learned this gem the other day and it's been hugely helpful to know! The FS7 just became MUCH more appealing to me.

Thank you!
 
"Q2: 4K 60p
Is the camera capable of 4K 60p in future firmware?
Q2. No The understanding is the hardware will not be able to travel that upgrade path"

The 4K 60p internal recording seems to be impossible but what about 4K 60p external recording ? Is it possible to use an external monitor with touch screen and use DPAF like on the 1DX Mark 2 ?

If an external monitor/recorder could do this two things it would be great !
 
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I just shot with the C300II for the first time and I was really surprised they got rid of expanded focus during recording... makes it pretty tough to check focus properly!

Also how is it possible it doesn't support LUTs? Sony's competing offerings all support LUTs for monitoring and recording, but the C300II has a LUT menu option that enables one 709 monitoring LUT and has no support for any other factory LUTs or custom LUTs.

I appreciate that they made the top handle more sturdy but it's not so easy to remove it on the fly for packing and rigging. Overally not that impressed with the DR either. I was hoping the article I saw showing the C300II having nearly identical DR to an FS7 was wrong but my experience was that it seemed about the same which is to say in the cineon-style LOG2 highlight retention is great but shadow noise is pretty significant so you'd probably need to shoot at ISO400 or overexpose ISO800 pull exposure in post just like I usually do on Sony cameras in SLOG2/3.
 
nyvz said:
I appreciate that they made the top handle more sturdy but it's not so easy to remove it on the fly for packing and rigging. Overally not that impressed with the DR either. I was hoping the article I saw showing the C300II having nearly identical DR to an FS7 was wrong but my experience was that it seemed about the same which is to say in the cineon-style LOG2 highlight retention is great but shadow noise is pretty significant so you'd probably need to shoot at ISO400 or overexpose ISO800 pull exposure in post just like I usually do on Sony cameras in SLOG2/3.
Click to expand...

We shot all last week with the C300 MkII and found ISO800 in Log2 to be pretty much unusable due to noise. We were able to salvage some footage with Neat Video, but were pretty surprised considering Canon rated the camera to ISO800.

Anyone else experience this?
 
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