Who PAYS Client or Shooter HVX workflow

5ive

5ive

Active member
Your opinions please.

Ok, so you’re a client base shooter and not an independent filmmaker. You're shooting on the HVX200 on P2 cards or firestore and down loading to a hard drive via pcima slot to a firewire hard drive. So far I think this is the workflow that everyone is thinking of. (or others that are very similar)

Well, a local post house brought up a very good point. What if your client says we would like to use the HVX but we would like to take some sort of tape backup with us, is this possible? If we can't back this up then we (the client) aren't interested in using the HVX. This thought makes me very uneasy considering I was about to plunk down big bucks on a HVX package complete with all the bells and whistles.

The post house went on to suggest that using an LTO data backup system would solve this dilemma. Which means I now have to purchase a LTO drive to perform backups in the field. (Anywhere from $2600-4500 + pcima to scsi adaptor)

My question is, is it the shooters responsibility to perform this task or is it the clients responsibility to provide a hard drive and or some sort of LTO tape drive backup system when out in the field. Or have I missed the boat completely and there is a better way?

The communities' help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
 
5ive said:
My question is, is it the shooters responsibility to perform this task or is it the clients responsibility to provide a hard drive and or some sort of LTO tape drive backup system when out in the field.
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I don't think it's necessarily either one or the other. But if the former, the shooter should be able to charge more per day than if just shooting tape. If the client won't pay up, and won't provide the extra gear - well, tape starts to seem attractive.

For some types of work the interconnect and powering issues of an external backup system may be a potential problem. The Infinity is in a different price league to the HVX, Z1, HD100 etc with 2/3" chips etc, but the solid state (CF) AND Iomega drive in one package starts to look very attractive in principle.
 
If client wants tape backup, then client needs to pay for rental of HD deck and HD tapes at 30 bucks per 33 minutes.

In the near future there will be blue ray disk to brun to from your computer as storage method.

Until that time arrives, I think it's best to have store on two seperate drives the same footage in different safe locations.

If you deliver a hard drive to you client and you have the info in your own computer then you have a backup. This what I intend to do, only I will intentionally dump all the takes I don't think is worth keeping.
 
I may invest in a few "loaner" drives to do hand-offs of footage to clients if need be. I just need to be sure to get them back! To cover the costs, I'd say just factor that into your rate to ensure return on your investments.

Although many clients will instantly say, "no way" to handing off footage on hard drives, I'd say the ones who say "hell yes!" will have much happier editors. "You mean I don't have to log and capture any tape?" "Yes, that's what I'm sayin'." "Wooo hooooo!!"

I also thought of the question of whether to hand off .mov files (mac) or .mxf files, and I think that would all depend on what requirements and agreements are worked out in advance. I think the workflow can be great, but it will require having clients who have the right gear and knowledge. The more work that is done on repeat basis with clients whom you already have a relationship with who can adopt this new workflow, the better. Constantly working with new clients, especially those using conventional workflows, and who are adhering to those workflows, may not be the ones to try to do work for. On the other hand, if those conventional clients are a reality, the HVX200 may not be the way to go. Or, have an HDV camera available in addition, if budget permits.

-steev
 
holyzoo said:
I may invest in a few "loaner" drives to do hand-offs of footage to clients if need be. I just need to be sure to get them back! To cover the costs, I'd say just factor that into your rate to ensure return on your investments.
-steev
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I like that idea.


holyzoo said:
On the other hand, if those conventional clients are a reality, the HVX200 may not be the way to go. Or, have an HDV camera available in addition, if budget permits.

-steev
Click to expand...

HDV huh? 13 gops between frames... Glad I don't have to post it. But maybe its worth considering.

thanks
 
holyzoo said:
I also thought of the question of whether to hand off .mov files (mac) or .mxf files, and I think that would all depend on what requirements and agreements are worked out in advance. I think the workflow can be great, but it will require having clients who have the right gear and knowledge.
-steev
Click to expand...

I rarely shoot for clients where I hand them a tape. I am lucky in that regard, but I will have to be deligent about getting files to a hard drive and treat them like master tapes. And yes when Blu-Ray becomes reality that will be great. Right now I do have a few clients that want every file I create for them. I have looked into DVCPRO HD deck rental for a few clients, again if they really insist on tape I will go rent the VariCam.
 
It would be great to hear from Jarred or Barry on this issue. Whats your opinion guys?
 
I am planning and have discussed with my regular clients the idea of backing up to 2 drives, the client leaves with one and I keep the second as a backup for an agreed upon duration. For a lot of the work I do, the cost of a drive versus the cost of a couple of cases of tape is negligible and when you factor in the cost savings on digitizing, it can be an easy sell to a producer who is willing to learn something new. The challenge I'm running into now is ensuring them that they will be able to use the footage off the drives. I can run it all through by Powerbook and give them the .mov files but that is a fairly laborious task that does away with much of the benefit of the tapeless solution. I'm lucky that one of my clients is already looking to upgrade to FCP5 and will inevitably have the ability to handle the .mxf files. The reality for me is that the need for high def is with my narrative clients, and they are in the best position to benefit from the P2 workflow. For my corporate and low end commercial clients, I'll probably deliver footage on DV for the time being until they upgrade their post path to accommodate HD footage.

The nice thing with the HVX is that with one camera you can address such a wide range of clients' needs. If they have a DV budget, you can deliver DV product (with the added ability to give them slow-mo transferred to their DV tape) if they have the money, you can offer HD or DVCpro 50 at a price point still well below any other current method. The key is we can't go off offering HD at the same cost as SD. Just because the camera costs less doesn't mean that the workflow isn't still pricey. HD still costs more, just not as much as it used to.
 
I think the 2-drive scenario is ideal for in the field. LTO is more long term archiving at home/the office. With regular clients you can even make a deal to each buy a drive. That way you swap them at each handover. No worries about getting them back either. A second drive (your own) to back up should be safe. If you have two HD's failing at the same time it generally isn't the HDs fault. :)
 
LTO in the field would seem a bit complex. What we did was load the clips to the laptop's hard disk, and then at the end of the day copy to an external drive for the editor. So we had two copies of the footage -- one on the laptop, one on the external firewire or USB drive that we gave to the editor.

If you save up to copy the entire contents at the end of the day, it can make for a long copy process -- 45 minutes or so. If you tell the laptop that as soon as it's done quaffing the card, to start copying that card's contents over to the external drive, then it's all done in a multitasking scenario and you'll have a producer's edit-ready drive within minutes of wrapping the shoot day.

There's no doubt at all that people are going to have to get used to this new tapeless idea. Tape's been with us since the first cameras came out decades ago. This tapeless/hard-disk thing is new. Tape represents a "comfort zone" for people because it's familiar. Not better, mind you, but "familiar". But that'll change. It's like the changeover from the typewriter to the word processor -- really, how many of us use typewriters anymore? The first time you give a hard disk to the producer and the editor plugs it in and begins editing, well, that will be the last time you ever hear that producer say "we need a tape."

The other thing to remember is, tape used to be compatible. Now it isn't. Back in the old days, BetaSP meant BetaSP -- any BetaSP tape from any manufacturer would fit in any BetaSP camera or any BetaSP deck, regardless of manufacturer (Ampex, Sony, Ikegami, etc). Now with HDV, it's not that way. Now a JVC HDV tape won't play in a Canon HDV camcorder, or vice versa. Now a Sony HDV tape won't play in a JVC deck. Now a JVC or Canon 24F/30F tape can't be played and/or digitized in a Sony deck. And, presuming that you actually do have a combination of camera/deck that actually is compatible, is your editor? JVC 24P and Canon 24F footage won't work in FCP or Avid. So even if you can read the tapes, you may not be able to use them.

So while things are in such a state of transition, why not skip the whole tape nightmare and use this opportunity to go tapeless and reap the benefits? FCP, Avid, and Canopus are all 100% fully P2-compliant, MXF-compliant. The hard disk eliminates the question marks about deck compatibility; a FAT32 hard disk will work on a PC or Mac system. The file format is a SMPTE-codified standard, Op-Atom MXF. Even if the editor is using an editing program that doesn't natively support it, there's a file conversion program that can be used to convert the MXF files into standard .AVI or .MOV files. The same can't be said for tape incompatibility -- if the Sony deck won't play the Canon 24F footage, there's no little conversion program you can run to get past that -- instead, you're just hosed (unless you want to go out and buy a $9,000 XLH1 to play that footage). By moving the footage into the data domain, incompatibilites like that can be rectified with software updates and driver downloads, rather than having to replace gear!

That's one thing that Panasonic did really well with the HVX -- they lined up the editing support a year before the camera was even on the market. They made sure that there was full integration long before releasing the product, so (unlike with HDV) people won't be sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting a full year before Avid releases HDV compatibility (yes, the FX1 was on the market for a full year before Avid was compatible with it). Avid, FCP, and Canopus are fully HVX-compatible now, even before the camera's on the market. And nearly every production company of any size has at least one Avid or FCP suite.

Now if Panasonic could just get Vegas and Premiere Pro to support the HVX natively, that would cover something like 99% of the market for NLE's.
 
Wow, I'm going to use the info gathered here to help some of the producers I work with see the light. Thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute. :thumbup:
 
We rarely have a request for HD shoots. When we do, we rent a Varicam and charge for it. With the HVX and NL recording a new process of recording will be necessary. Until Blu-ray or whatever becomes available I don't see just handing one HDD to clients as a viable workflow. When there is a quick and field practical means, like Blu-ray, to backup the data, clients will be paying for the new workflow. I imagine a price somewhere between DV and HD. The extra money will be for the extra equipment involved and time needed to backup data in the field compared to a taped DV shoot. The client will be saving money from a "normal" HD shoot plus saving money in post time. The trick will be in selling them this idea, it will take time.

If you have clients who want HD today and you plan on using the HVX, the client needs to pay extra for your time and equipment. Perhaps putting all the data on 2 HDD will work. I see the HVX as a tool to slowly transition into the future but not a way to give clients HD video at DV prices.

The audio world has already treaded down this path with non-linear audio recording. It has taken some time and a lot of convincing clients of the easier/cheaper workflow of NL recording but we have broken this ground. Actually it was even harder for the audio world since we had to convince telecine houses to invest in expensive equipment to sync the sound in telecine. Clients won't be needing any extra expensive equipment to get NL video up and running, just a little faith.

Cheers
 
holyzoo said:
I may invest in a few "loaner" drives to do hand-offs of footage to clients if need be. I just need to be sure to get them back! To cover the costs, I'd say just factor that into your rate to ensure return on your investments.

Although many clients will instantly say, "no way" to handing off footage on hard drives, I'd say the ones who say "hell yes!" will have much happier editors. "You mean I don't have to log and capture any tape?" "Yes, that's what I'm sayin'." "Wooo hooooo!!"
-steev
Click to expand...

I've been talking to my DP friend who is going to buy this camera when it comes out. He's owns a DVX and works a lot in town shooting with it and other higher end cameras.

I come from the producer angle, with a deep understanding of cameras, etc.

My advice to him is that buying camera means that you need to step up to the plate and learn how to sell it to producers. For the producers who get it -- the ones that have heard about this camera and the benefits of going tapeless it will be a no brainer. But there's going to be a lot of people who don't understand.

Here is your spiel if you're trying to get your clients to go with this camera:
* Hard drives are cheaper than HD tape stock.
* An on-set copy of the dailies will be made and kept by you for 30 days.
* HDV has reliability problems playing back from one system into another and may look considerably worse in high detailed shots.
* No logging time if you're editing the material in FCP, Canopus or Avid.
* No Deck rental.

I think it's silly to for him to charge a much larger rental rate for the HVX than he does for the DVX. Can the HVX do a heck of a lot more? Yes it can, for about the same price. Maybe a $50 a day premium. Maybe. But when you're kit is under $10,000 *and* it's going to require a producer to think you may as well just kiss the job goodbye.

So let's say he does indeed upgrade to the HVX. Most of his accessories transfer straight over. Let's say he get's the bare package with one 4 gig card, that's $6500. With his current rate of $250/day, that's 26 days of work to pay it off, or one feature film.

Now there will be some who scream this is HD!! We must charge more! And my answer is sure, charge whatever you can get away with. If you can get your clients to pay it, who am I say no?

At whatever rate you'll still charge for expendibles (harddrives), and perhaps a storage fee for your backup, and rentals of additional equipment (extra P2 cards).

You shouldn't lose money on this or any camera. If you won't work more than 26 days with it over the next two years, just rent the sucker.
 
My solution is gonna be DVD-R's as a backup solution. There are just too many tape/drive combinations out there to commit to buying one format to do backups with. If the Client must have a tape backup of the finished shot, build a relationship with a tapehouse and get them to spit out whatever format you need, and charge that cost to the client.

But as for DVD-R's.. P2 cards (well the small ones) are 4gb.. just the same size as a DVD-R.. its the perfect solution. Sure Disks get scratched or whatever, but for backup, its a viable option.

What about 8gb cards? well thats what dual layer disks are for.

Thats what im going to do though, until i find a reason not to.
 
digitalfilmmaker said:
. With his current rate of $250/day, that's 26 days of work to pay it off, or one feature film.
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Where do you work out of? I haven't seen anyone pay a $250 a day rental for a prosumer/dv camera unless it is a single day rental from an unknown rental house. We can rent BetaSp cameras for just a little over $300 from our most expensive rental house here in Seattle (and again that is a single day rental rate). Independent shooters usually charge about half that rate for their total equipment package, at least in this market.

Cheers
 
Jarred Land said:
My solution is gonna be DVD-R's as a backup solution.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what we did on our shoot and it worked great. I think that this workflow is the lease expensive, least cumbersome and least volatile. I purchased a really awesome DVD binder that holds 20 DVDRs and they make no contact with the case except on the outer edge of the disk, the cost of the binder was about $15.

I.
 
DVD R is excellent solution and with that give a free P2 viewer to the client and he can view his HD on any computer. If he wants the DVD type solution convert P2 using Canopus or other software to Window media disc and then deliver . Thia is the beauty of P2 the solutions are not owned by Panasonic but left to your imagination. The DVD R is also recognise as P2 files by any non linear system
Tape LTO is an excellent back up system for you if you want to store your 30 hours of shoot and then serch the database with MXF it is just that easy.
 
A good idea for backing up, would be to use something like winrar (much better than winzip) to compress the raw mxf files and then burn them to dvd as .rar files to save on the number of dvd 9's you actually need for one project or use only 4.7's which go way cheaper, so with 5 dollars or less you get 47gigs (that's ten 4,7 dvd's) whereas you 'd get just 1 or maybe 2 (if you cand find them cheap enough) dvd 9 discs.

To give you an idea,I tried rar-compressing the: 720-DVCPRO-ball.mov file, and it went from 41.2 Mb's to 30.4, imagine that on 100gig or more project! The compression time would certainly be a pain, but it's an option!
 
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