Which 'cheap' camera would you buy to teach students video/photography?

I've always thought that if I were to teach a film class, I'd just have students use their phones since most phones these days have really good quality video anyway. For advanced things, I'd try to be realistic and recommend something the students and/or the school could go to Best Buy or Costco to buy or replace. For sound, again, use their phones with some of those fancy adapters on the market or get a bunch of Zoom H4N recorders which aren't all that expensive. If it's really about having all in one solutions, look at Panasonic G7 or the GH4 with Speed Boosters or as is since Micro 4/3 isn't all that bad for DOF.
 
I'd say - well, probably repeating what has been said - but I'd look at a camera rental outlet and try to find a 4-5 year old model from Nikon or Canon for ~ $100-$150.

PS. Having perused Craigslist, it seems like people ask for far too much on what is essentially obsolete gear. If so, one might as well consider brand new cameras, which can be had for around $350, lens but not tax included. This way, you also get warranty, a potential group buy discount and a time buffer on wear and tear.
 
When you learn to be a teacher, the thing every single one is told is that the basics are essential. Underpinning knowledge. It has to be embedded before a person can progress. If it isn't done effectively, then bad practice can follow, and holes in knowledge sometimes difficult to repair later. So you need to remove zoom's, and perhaps even focus to get started. A wide angle lens that is in focus from three feet to Infiniti removes the need. The idea to use phones is a good one. The more tuned in students and those who have put in the ground work will see where their images ar compromised, and these ones see the need for the controls to assist them. Keen professional and skilled amateurs want to pass on their skills to the kids which is admirable, but learning is a technical process if you want it to be effective for all the kids. If the group is a club, with only interested intelligent kids who have elected to do the class you can do far more. If it's a mixed group you cannot assume showing them things that interest you will interest them.

Ask any any trained teacher. They will all tell you the same thing. One disenfranchised student wrecks progress for at least three others in the under 16 age groups. You will spend more time stopping them than helping the keen.
 
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You can teach the basic techniques of video making using an iPhone. Those that excel doing it with their phone (most modern smart phones are "good enough" not just an iPhone) will be enthusiastic to go to the next stage and you will know who and what to invest in.

Things like telling a story, framing, types of shots etc etc are orthogonal to the type of camera you have. Once they know which end of the camera records and what to point it at you can start. any more than that will overwhelm them unless they are very interested and burning to learn. In which case they will already have a channel on youtube.
 
Mavoz said:
Hi,
Our growing school is beginning a journey teaching our Senior students (age 13-17) Film Production and Photography.

I need to find a good 'budget' camera model as we'd like to buy several cameras....Functionality and cost

My thinking is to buy a camera model we can use for both Video and Photography.


Matt
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Some of my respected friends here have made good recommendations. They are all good possibilities for different reasons. I used a 60D for working projects over the last 5 years along with a 600D. I upgraded to the G7 (baby GH4) for the low cost of 4K. I also kept my 600D as a still camera because as a long time photographer and film cinematographer I do like seeing through the lens.
So for higher resolution 4K on a budget I would say get the G7, but as a still camera I would go for the 600D/T3i which has to be the lowest cost camera with exactly the same resolution as the 60D. if you can still find them
That said I think the BMCC pocket camera may have more to offer the new students. (less is more) I learned film with a light meter and film. It's important to know how to control your camera completely instead of letting the computer do all the thinking in the beginning. That's like learning addition, subtraction, multiplication and division with a calculator instead of a pencil and piece of paper.
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A few secondhand Panasonic GH2 is my vote. Dirt dirt cheap, and you get top notch quality from it! Waaaaay better than any Canon APS-C DSLR (heck, people rated a hacked GH2 above a 5Dmk3 even!).

Another thought is several GH1 bodies (nearly as good as GH2, but lacks live HDMI), plus one or two GH2 bodies for when they want to use it with an external monitor (Aputure FineHD VS-2, a quality 1920x1080 screen for dirt cheap!! :-o Amazing), plus one G6 (or even G7, which some people even prefer over a Gh4! It is better than a GH4 at low light) for when they want 60fps FHD slow motion on a production (or 4K).

Get a few RJ Lens Turbos, and Nikon F mount lenses.

http://ironfilm.co.nz/a-priced-out-gear-kit-for-a-newbie-to-filmmaking-using-the-panasonic-gh2/
http://www.eoshd.com/2013/07/panasonic-g6-review-the-gh2-redux/

Nikon D5200 is also a solid choice! I own one myself (plus lots of Micro Four Thirds cameras). Again, maybe if you go with Nikon instead consider a mix with several D5200 plus one D5300 for when you want 60fps FHD slow motion on a project.

http://www.eoshd.com/2013/02/nikon-d5200-review/
http://www.eoshd.com/2013/02/nikon-d5200-vs-canon-5d-mark-iii/


For audio I'd avoid a Zoom H4n like the plague. (Ditto Canon for a camera body) An H4n or a Canon both "kinda" (but not really) made sense in the very very early days of the HDSLR Revolution (years ago), when there were very few other options. But it makes no sense to buy either today at all.

I'd go instead with a Tascam DR-60D mk2, paired with a cheap Xiaomi USB battery bank (Xiaomi is like the Apple of China!) which I Velcro to the back plus a camera strap around the handles of the Tascam. No need then for a mixing bag! And you'll be able to run for a looooong time with that set up! (vs the internal AA batteries which get eaten up if you run only on them, but with a USB battery pack you never need to worry about that)

That there is my set up before I upgraded to a Sound Devices 552 (waaaaaaaaay more expensive! But worth it, for me as a semi pro soundie).

For microphone, get perhaps one Sennheiser MKE 600? (I have a NTG2 at the moment, which is a solid microphone and I got a good deal on it! But I might suggest going with a MKE600 or perhaps a NTG3 instead) And the rest be HTDZ HT-81 microphones (which is what I started out with years ago, recording into a Zoom H1). Again following my suggestion of having the bulk of the gear being cheap while still decent (HTDZ HT-81) but get one or two nicer pieces (which are still frugal) for use on more important projects which deserve it (or/and for when they're under closer supervision by you, so they'll be looking after the equipment). This means they'll also learn to appreciate the quality difference which can be output from lower end equipment vs better equipment (and also how it can *not* matter... how a HTDZ HT-81 in skilled hands will sound better than somebody clueless on a project using a MKE600).

So that is for outdoor recordings, for indoor you'll want something else (due to reflective surfaces which will bounce the sound back, not ideal for using a shotgun in). I'm using a Takstar CM-60 at the moment, until I can afford an Oktava MK012. So I suggest you get a few CM-60 for indoor audio dialogue.

For a boom pole I got this:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free...-Support-Rod-Flash-Light-LED/32278111738.html

But I mainly got this because of the FREE SHIPPING, as I live in the middle of nowhere in a small island nation called New Zealand. Sometimes shipping of big bulky items from the USA can be painfully expensive! But if you're in the USA then there are well priced boom poles with free shipping for you to choose from at B&H / Adorama or Amazon.com

Edit:
heh, as rambled on for so long... I turned it into a blog post on my website so it can be more generally useful for others as well :)
http://ironfilm.co.nz/set-of-camera...eaching-filmmaking-to-young-teenage-students/
 
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My T2i/550D proved to be an excellent training ground for my now URSA Mini. The thing about the Canon's, is that while they suffer from moire and aliasing, they are still very popular for video, and thus have many picture style options. With Magic Lantern, I was able to run both a standby and a record picture style. I used VisionColor CineLook for the standby, and VisionTech for record, giving me a nice flat image for grading, but allowing me to light with an idea of the final look. The Mini allows essentially the same thing. Also, for a student, I see no problem whatsoever in using a 550D or similar. I shot an entire feature on that camera with just the kit lens, and it looked pretty darn good projected. Sure, it's easy to get caught up in the latest and greatest, but really, film is about telling a story, first and foremost. And they can learn to do that with a cheap Canon and the editing software that comes with their computer.
 
El Director: Sometimes the gap between Canon and Nikon becomes too big deny... and you can no longer cover it up with the excuse "it is all about telling the story first of all":

http://www.wirkshopseries.com/why-i-gave-up-on-a-30-year-relationship-with-my-camera-2/

During a conversation about cameras and gear, a wise photographer said to me: “it’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian.” (Meaning the camera has nothing to do with it. It’s the photographer that matters.)




I believed him and stuck to that motto for years, slowly upgrading my gear only when necessary. The last new camera I bought was two years ago and I still shoot with a 10-year-old camera and even older lenses. Fast forward to a few days ago when I rented a Nikon D750 and found myself doing something I honestly never thought I would do.




After being a lifetime Canon shooter, I am now a Nikon shooter.




Hell has frozen over, pigs are flying, and the fat lady has indeed sung. However you want to say it, I’m amazed that I now have two Nikon D750’s sitting in my studio ready for action.




I have been an avid Canon shooter for about 30 years. The very first photo I ever took was on my Dad’s Canon FTB. I’ve shot Canon cameras since then with unwavering loyalty. So why the change?



It wasn’t easy to make this decision, but all it took was shooting one wedding with the new Nikon D750 and it was lights out for my long-standing relationship with Canon.



I had heard the Nikon D750 was pretty much the perfect wedding camera. Words like “game changer” were being thrown around and most of my friends were backing it. For years I heard how superior Nikon’s auto-focus was to Canon’s, but I wasn’t a true believer, nor did I have the financial resources to make the switch. So I stuck with my Canon gear, fighting frustration with not only autofocus but also ISO quality. There were (and still are) things about Nikon cameras that don’t appeal to me. I have never liked the ergonomics of Nikons; the placement of the dials never agreed with my hands compared to Canon. I can use my Canon cameras super fast and have nailed great photos because of the ability to spin the shutter speed and aperture dials at lighting speeds. That combined with the massive price tag to switch systems never allowed me to consider it.




Until now.



Enter the Nikon D750. Finally, a camera has arrived that makes it undeniably hard to ignore, but more importantly, makes it financially possible to jump ship.
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Firstly thanks for all the replies here....really value all the thoughtful discussion! Thank you so much.


The interesting part I should have mentioned is the kids do have their own Ipads....so they actually have a very good basic camera ready to go. We can indeed teach a great deal of composition, basics of editing etc. with those.


What I'd like to do with our comparatively small camera budget is supplement the weaker aspects of the Ipads with some of the benefits of more dedicated cameras....how does this strategy sound?
* Use Student Ipads for all general purpose shooting...teaching composition etc.


* Invest in a few DSLR cameras with a KIT lens and bonus 50 mm 1.8 lenses + variable ND filters....this will allow students specifically to explore portraiture and the classic 'Shallow Depth of Field' look that was a significant part of the DSLR video revolution.


* Invest in one proper camera to provide proper XLR inputs and monitoring headphones.


* Invest in a boom pole kit and shotgun mic.


* Buy Tripods and adaptors for Ipads/DSLR Cameras.


* Buy a camera slider.


* Buy basic shotgun mics


* Buy iRig Pres to allow audio input of professional mics into Ipads.

How does this strategy sound?

Key Questions I'm researching:
* What Ipad Tripod adaptor
* What Shotgun mic package...XLR or 3.5 mini?
* What camera that provides good audio monitoring and recording. (Mucking around with Dual audio is too much of a pain with this age group)
* Am considering a cheap DSLR option that simply provides HD and a 50mm lens. 60D or 70D or some of the Nikon options mentioned....probably lean to Canon though because I can even loan some of my older Canon gear to supplement the cams.

Thanks so much for all the advice...much appreciated!
 
If you want XLR inputs with a headphone jack, then any of Sony FS100, Sony F3 (or even FS700! Saw one for US$2.5K recently :-o :-o ) or Panaosnic AF100 (or the many slightly number variants) would serve you well and are very cheap secondhand.

Or get a Panasonic GH3 which has a headphone jack and mic input, pairing it with a Tascam DR-60D mk2 could be a good idea too. Or a Nikon D7100 also has a headphone jack.

The Nikon options are just so much better and cheaper, I couldn't consider a 60D/70D, but anyway what older Canon gear do you specifically have?
 
Hi IronFilm,
I have the Canon 60D + a couple of good quality....70-200mm f4 L, 50 1.8, tamron 17-85, 10-22S + adaptors.

But anyway...really just looking for the best value camera....that gives you a headphone + mic input + option for different lenses....shall check those options out.

Thanks!

Edit: Just checked out that GH3....that looks like it might be a great option....ideally we'd like to actually buy new..just from a warranty/school point of view....can you adapt lenses from Canon or Nikon?
 
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Just returning to this thread.....we've started our elective program and have been getting by with Student Ipads...has given us a chance to reflect on what may be most useful....

Have decided we might be better off with rotating groups through a few camera experiences...rather than trying to find one 'all in one' super camera that does everything...

ie. We buy one dedicated more expensive camera with a proper mic setup for Interviews....so in this case something with dedicated XLR inputs that we can team up with a Boom Pole and Shotgun Mic + Lapel Mic.

We'll then get a range of other 'cheaper' cameras for other filming needs....ie' maybe a couple of 70d's...possibly also a DJI Osmo....

Then also some specialised equipment like a Camera Slider...Ipad Tripod mounts...XLR input adaptor for Ipads.

The thinking is we can rotate students through cameras and give them a cross section of experiences....

Then they also have Ipads for general filming needs.

Can anyone recommend a Value for Money camera that features XLR inputs?

First place I contacted suggested the Canon XA30.

How does that sound for a main Interview camera?

Thanks.
 
An AF100 is probably cheaper than an XA30 these days, and gives you the option of using manual lenses with focus and aperture rings.
 
You must have really good high school students, we couldn't get our college students to to handle the differences between a JVC DV5000 and a JVC DV5100 which for all intents and purposes are the same with the exception of a few switches that were in a slightly different place. We toss them a back up tripod and many of our students get lost and panic. Switching between a DSLR and an ENG style camera would blow their minds, and most of them would be satisfied to just do everything on their phone (without the high quality audio interface).
 
Greg_E said:
You must have really good high school students, we couldn't get our college students to to handle the differences between a JVC DV5000 and a JVC DV5100 which for all intents and purposes are the same with the exception of a few switches that were in a slightly different place. We toss them a back up tripod and many of our students get lost and panic. Switching between a DSLR and an ENG style camera would blow their minds, and most of them would be satisfied to just do everything on their phone (without the high quality audio interface).
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Just returning to this thread...

As mentioned earlier...the Ipads are actually doing the job for many of the basics of filming...

We do want to get one good camera for general filming...

Criteria:
  • Something reasonably easy to use....point and shoot.
  • Ability to input decent microphone directly to avoid need for the 'dual audio' process...(input proper shotgun mics)
  • Ok in lower light...
If we buy new it seems the Canon XA30 or Panasonic HC-PV100GC might fulfil this. Is there anything else we should consider for this specific purpose?

Here is a link to a bunch of other options we can get here in Australia:

http://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/category1079_1.htm

Thanks for any thoughts!

EDIT: I've just noticed the Canon 80D now has a mic input and headphone jack...but this would mean we'd just be buying regular 3.5 mm Shotgun mics etc...but maybe we'd be better using the XA300 as our camera A...and use proper XLR mics....then down the track buy DSLR style cameras for the bokeh style shots...B camera etc.
 
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