Which cam should I buy please help!!!

breadmansshoes

breadmansshoes

New member
Hi Everyone,

I have been browsing this forum over the last few weeks and think it is fantastic. I have learnt so much in a very short space of time. Anyway having taken the plunge and joined up I thought I would use the opportunity to ask for some much needed help and advice.

I am about to purchase my first 'serious' camcorder and primarily want to use it for making shorts, indie flicks etc. I have around £3k (I live in England) to spend on the cam. I have been a serious admirer of the dvx 100 for quite a while but think that I should go straight to HD now so am obviously thinking of the hmc 151?

My concern is that, do you know if the hmc 151 about to be superseded by something else shortly?
Also I don't seem to be able to find much in the way of great reviews like the dvx 100 has.

Basically if I was buying a new cam a couple of years ago the DVX100 would be a no brainer. Just wondering is the HMC 151 the no brainer for me now?

Thanks in advance for your help!
 
The 151 has only been on the market less than a year. It's very unlikely that there will be any update to it any time soon.

If you want an HD DVX, the 151 is a "no brainer", indeed.

The only other thing to keep your eye on might be the HMC40, which is due to hit sometime next month. It's a lower-cost, lesser version of the HMC150, sort of like the DVC30 was to the DVX100. So if you don't need everything that the HMC150 can do, maybe the HMC40 makes sense? Nobody's tested one yet, but the specs look promising.
 
Thanks for your reply Barry. My mind is just about made up with the HMC151 looks like a great camera. Will have a look at the HMC 40 though.
 
You should also check out the Panasonic GH1, which is capable of shooting 1080p50 and 720p50. It uses interchangeable lenses and has a video-style LCD that swings away from the camera just like a camcorder. The audio recording is limited, but a lot of indie filmmakers are drooling over this camera. In fact, it is so popular it is nearly impossible to find one.

Check out: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=177

Jack
 
Hi Breadman,

We're in nearly the same shoes I think. It was a tough decision finding the right camera, something that had a "look" to the images that was aesthetically pleasing, the manual controls I wanted, and an acceptable price tag. I ultimately chose the HMC150 because I liked the vibrant colors and the slow motion it produces, and that suited the hyper-real tone of the shorts I want to make. In essence, no matter what I make (even those horribly cliched dramas where the depressed student looks at himself in the mirror), I'd like to convey "reality" as a sort of candy land filled with all sorts of hidden values and unknown treasures waiting to be plundered by anyone open enough to find them. Semiotically, that's the effect I feel watching a lot of HMC150 footage, and I just smile every time I see it in action.

All this is to say what I believe to be the most important aspects of buying a new camera: know what you want to shoot, how you want to shoot it, how you plan on distributing and exhibiting your work (web, festival circuit, home viewing, etc.), and most importantly -- your budget. This should include at least: the camera, camera accessories (like 35mm adapters, jibs, lenses), sound and lighting equipment, costumes and props, sets, cast and crew (if you're paying them; most likely not), food and drinks, any music or distribution/exhibition fees, and any updates to your editing system).

Once you determine all this (again, at least), then you're ready to make compromises. Because you'll have to make them if you want to complete any film you start. If you want to make a film that seems professional, like something you'd watch in a theater on a Saturday night, that's going to cost you. You'd need to budget for everything I listed, then probably double that number to be safe. There are ways to mimic high production value and hide the low budget, such as investing in 35mm adapters, focus pulls, and steadicams/cranes. But more times than not the actors will give it away anyhow. Even if you know you have the best script ever, if the actors can't deliver the emotionality of a scene, then people won't be interested.

Taking this into account, maybe consciously low-budget or documentary work might suit you better. Docs especially are great for filmmakers who want to tell stories but don't have the funds or access to experienced actors necessary to make a fine short or feature. People generally forgive sound and lighting errors or dull coloring if they know it's intentional, if they think it couldn't be helped given the shooting situation, and/or if they're emotionally involved with the material. Both of these options will allow you to cut some corners. Additionally, there are quite a few markets for short web docs and how-to videos from what I've seen, so you can make those and gather the funding to build your film arsenal. Again, know what you want to say and how you want to say it before buying anything.

I'd suggest compiling a list of camcorders in a price range that's acceptable considering the entirely of the budget, and then looking up videos that people have shot with those cameras. Vimeo is a great place to start. This may take days to do, but it's very important to find a look that appeals to you, a base image quality that screams out and shakes you. Also, take note of any accessories and special editing software they used, and budget for that as you'll probably need them to get that same look.

A few more things to consider:

Are you planning on making a career out of filmmaking? It's rough going, and most people are done with it even before completing their first SHORT film, let alone a feature. Know yourself, physically and mentally. Make sure you can handle the extreme stress, pressure, and erratic work schedules that come with film shoots.

Your social skills are also really important here. From what I've experienced, filmmakers are basically salespeople. They shape and tell a story, whether it's fiction or documentary or avante-garde; and then they try to sell you the idea that this story is important, that you have to watch it because it concerns you as a member of homo sapien. If you're sociable, if people like and trust you, then you'll be much better equipped to gather information and personnel. If you're more the wallflower than the life of a party, then certain kinds of projects might be better for you. Consequently, certain cameras are better for you.

Are you resourceful? Do you think outside of yourself often, and see new ways of solving old problems? Whether you do or don't will also influence what projects you should pursue, and what equipment you'll need (at least, on your first few films).

Most importantly, you need to be someone with strong convictions. That single-minded drive to understand the multi-faceted complexity of reality, to expose truth, to revel in the emotionality of human life -- even to make money -- will be your greatest tool in completing any project you embark on. Regardless of what camera you have.

If you know you'll be making a lot of films, then purchasing the equipment is probably a sound investment. If you're not sure about what to buy or how often you'll use what you buy, then rent. There's a reason these guys are still in business! This will allow you to test out many different products while still making films and honing your craft.

You also don't have to be a one-man band. You can hire cinematographers and sound recordists/technicians, who usually have their own equipment and personnel they work with. The fees can range, but maybe there's someone who sees your talent, believes in your project, and will do it for cheap or for free. This will also give you a chance to integrate with your local film community. Because productions are so time consuming and resource-heavy, knowing a large group of people with similar interests can help you gather a crew relatively shortly. They may only be able to help in their free time, and you should be willing to do the same for them, but it's probably more rewarding than doing it yourself.

Or, you can hit up friends that have the equipment you need but can't afford. If you have a friend that's a musician, they'll probably have sound equipment or know people that have it. Buy them dinner and ask them for a favor. You can offer to use their equipment, or hire them to work your crew, and in exchange you'll give them a platform for some of those original songs they've been dying for people to hear.

If you have any friends in photography, enlist their help as well. They'll should have some basic lighting equipment, or know people who do, and hire them to take stills of the production. Publicity is usually overlooked by a lot of budding filmmakers, but it's extremely important. You're a salesman, remember? Create an intriguing story surrounding the film itself. Reveal the conflict your actors experienced as they slipped into a complex role, or the eventual disputes between crew members. Document your own financial and emotional struggles, and have your photographer friend shoot all of it. If you have a second unit camera, or if your friend is in-the-know and has a video DSLR, shoot a "making-of" featurette. Cast the crew and yourself as tragic figures in the meta-narrative, and watch as interest in your film project skyrockets. If you need an example of this, just look at Star Wars. Lucas knew that merchandising was the key, because it got people emotionally involved in the story before they even saw a second of footage. He tapped into the vast reservoir of the audience's imagination, and then delivered on it with some amazing visuals and a story and characters people liked to spend time with. And even if you don't reach his level of success, all that behind-the-scenes material is still great to have, because it's there as testament and memorialization to your resolve and those times you spent doing what you love. It's a reward all by itself, and you should consider this when you're deciding the next, latest, greatest camera as well.

If you're courageous, look to investors or ask for donations online. (And yes, there are still people who have money.) Spend what you can, make what you can, and then use that material to garner interest. Bundle it with your publicity material, and sell your story. With investors, you'll have to justify how your film will make money, and that means looking up profit models for various methods of distribution and exhibition. Start with family members, people who already like you and trust you, and then work your way to strangers. But don't lie to anyone about any potential profitability. You can cite examples of profits being made, but be realistic and honest with them. It will make any relationship you have with that person that much stronger, whether they take you up on the offer or not. Accordingly, you shouldn't ask for a large sum unless you are absolutely sure you can make that large sum (plus interest) back. You'll improve your chances if you ask for hundreds of dollars, instead of thousands. There's something about that extra zero....

Accordingly, this applies to the donation approach and getting online support. Buy a web address (around 87 cents USD a year), draw up a design, and post all the material you can, including publicity and blog entries about yourself, about the great times and the hardship. I recommend doing this even before production starts, or at least in a journal you keep. It's therapeutic, and it helps create the meta-narrative that might sway people. Then ask for any help they can provide. Don't specify how much, let them decide. Typically this might be between 50 cents USD and $20, and even 100 people donating $1 is $100 more dollars you can use toward completing your project. Use resources like YouTube, Vimeo, and forums like this one to further expand your audience and virtual donation bucket.

You may also want to look into government grant programs for the arts. There are many sources out there which explain the application and award process, so spend some time researching those as well.

Personally, I've chosen to supplement any fiction film work I want to do with videography services. This means getting equipment that's suitable for both types of projects, and using it to earn money to fund other, more creative work down the line. This way, I'll also be practicing skills such as quick-thinking and managing stress in active and dynamic environments; as well as getting useful ideas for stories I might write later on.

I know this may seem like a lot, and if this is just a hobby then much of what I've said probably won't apply. But if you're serious about using the power of the moving image to inspire and transform people, then I think you must also understand that a simple question about what camera to buy entails far more than just the camera. The camera is one link in a chain that wraps and binds the entire process of making a film. Film is not just the image. It's all of the above and so much more. It's a work that takes time out of people's lives, and I believe you should budget for a rewarding experience rather than the best image. Spread the love a little and I promise you won't regret it. :grin:

Happy trails!

Jon
 
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I can only give you my best GUESS as to what the likely differences are between the HMC-150 (HMC-151) and the HMC-40 (HMC-41 ???).

(1) The HMC-150 is likely to have better low light performance. The HMC-40 has a smaller image sensor AND more pixels than the HMC-150. Both items work against low light performance. This will not be an issue in daylight.

(2) The wide angle setting on the HMC-40 is 40.8mm (35mm equivalent) on the HMC-150 it's 28mm. Not a big issue, but one should factor in the extra cost of a 0.7x wide angle adapter if they need those wide angle shots.

(3) It's possible that the image on the HMC-40 may be a little sharper. However, my guess is that the contrast ratio, dynamic range, and colors will look a bit better on the HMC-150.

(4) The audio XLR inputs are standard on the HMC-150, but optional on the HMC-40. There is an optional adapter for XLR inputs on the HMC-40, but one has to factor that into the total cost.


Some things we can read from the specification sheets, but other things we'll have to wait a few weeks or a month to see how the camera will perform.

The HMC-40 does NOT replace the HMC-150, the HMC-40 is the lower model.


If you had to get something today, the HMC-150 (HMC-151) has proven itself as a very good camera. There are more than enough people on this forum who have used or seen the results from the HMC-150 who will give a strong thumbs up the the HMC-150.


Bob Diaz
 
Please make sure you get the correct model for your market, 150, 151, 152, etc.

If not, the warranty will not be honored by Panasonic. There are several websites selling the 151 to the US market at a substancial discount, but the buyers are finding Panasonic will not honor the warranty.
 
Hi Sixpalm

Wow thanks for all the advice! You have certainly given me a lot to think about!!

I think I have made my decision now and am going to part with my hard earned and get the HMC 151 and a good tripod. Then I think I will have to start looking at the 35mm adapters! (it never stops does it!). It is the same with my photography always another great piece of kit to get. One good thing is I have quite a few pro canon lenses that I will be able to use with whatever 35mm adapter I get.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Will post what the cam is like when I get.
 
BobDiaz said:
(1) The HMC-150 is likely to have better low light performance. The HMC-40 has a smaller image sensor AND more pixels than the HMC-150. Both items work against low light performance. This will not be an issue in daylight.
Click to expand...
As the HMC-40 has got CMOS censors this is highly questionable.
 
breadmansshoes said:
Hi Sixpalm

Wow thanks for all the advice! You have certainly given me a lot to think about!!

I think I have made my decision now and am going to part with my hard earned and get the HMC 151 and a good tripod. Then I think I will have to start looking at the 35mm adapters! (it never stops does it!). It is the same with my photography always another great piece of kit to get. One good thing is I have quite a few pro canon lenses that I will be able to use with whatever 35mm adapter I get.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Will post what the cam is like when I get.
Click to expand...

No problem man. Just a heads up on the 35s: I've been researching them for a few days and some only support Nikon lenses. There's a 72mm thread on the thing, so keep that in mind too.

I'd actually hold off on buying the adapter until you get the camera and shoot some decent footage with it. Then you'll be better informed about what kind of look you want but aren't getting.
 
pailes said:
As the HMC-40 has got CMOS censors this is highly questionable.
Click to expand...
Compare Canon HF100/10/11 with 1/3.2-inch sensor and 3Mpix and Canon HF200/20 with 1/4-inch sensor and 4 Mpix. The latter achieves incredible 800 lw/ph, but falls apart in low light.
 
pailes said:
As the HMC-40 has got CMOS censors this is highly questionable.
Click to expand...

According to the Panasonic HMC-40 specification:
Minimum Luminance: Approx. 1 lx (Gain: +34 dB, Slow Shutter: 1/2 sec.)
Click to expand...

The HMC-150 specification says:
Minimum Luminance: 3lx, (F1.6, Gain: +12dB, Shutter: 1/25sec.)
Click to expand...

Converting from 1/2 a second to 1/25 of a second is: 12.5x increase

Going from +12dB to 34dB is a difference of 22dB; however we don't know at what point the noise level is about the same because the sensors are so different. Even if +34dB on the HXC-40 = the same noise lever of +12dB on the HMC-150, the shorter shutter speed (1/2 --> 1/25) would make the lx rating to go from 1 lx to 12.5 lx. So it's at least 2 stops slower according to the specification sheet.

This is my best guess based on specifications.

In the past, CMOS had some real low light problems, but there have been some major improvements over the years. Real world testing will be the final answer here.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, this does NOT make the HMC-40 a bad camera. Every camera has its limits and we just recognize and work within the camera's limits. If a given camera doesn't fit your needs, you have other choices.

Once the camera comes out and users test it, we'll know exactly what to expect.


Bob Diaz
 
6db ~ 1 stop. Doubling exposure time ~ 1 stop. Doubling illuminance ~ 1 stop. Therefore:

1/2 * 1/2^x = 1/25 ==> 2^x = 12.5 ==> x = log2(12.5) ~ 3.6 f-stops
(34dB - 12dB) / 6dB ~ 3.6 f-stops
3lx / 1lx = 3 f-stops

Total difference: 3.6 + 3.6 - 3 ~ 4 f-stops
 
Cranky said:
6db ~ 1 stop. Doubling exposure time ~ 1 stop. Doubling illuminance ~ 1 stop. Therefore:

1/2 * 1/2^x = 1/25 ==> 2^x = 12.5 ==> x = log2(12.5) ~ 3.6 f-stops
(34dB - 12dB) / 6dB ~ 3.6 f-stops
3lx / 1lx = 3 f-stops

Total difference: 3.6 + 3.6 - 3 ~ 4 f-stops
Click to expand...

Einsteins theory!
 
Hi Guys

HMC40 (HMC41) v. HMC150 (HMC151)
Just joined your great site - fantastic input from all.

I am about to re-enter Wedding Videography (20 year absence!) and require a suitable camcorder. One of the most important issues is low-light performance (+ image quality). I have decided I can only consider AVCHD. This I have narrowed down to HMC40 v HMC150 (UK versions of).

The HMC40 seems to be the HS300/TM300 upgrade, using the same sensors. SLASHCAM says the lowlight performance is only average.

A fantastic personal review incl video footage of actual wedding ceremony has been made by experienced Mark von Lanken. He compares the HMC150 with Sony Z1. The HMC150 excels in low light. (www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=52607). He also goes on to say the Z5 has the slight edge.

I feel that I have to go with the HMC150 rather than HMC40 on low light performance (Sony is tape based). I do like the idea of Face Detection on the HMC40, esp wedding video, but can the HMC150 offer more advantages overall. I seem to understand that the HMC40 would be ok in good light, but be poor in low-light. The HMC40 is much cheaper, but surely lowlight is my important factor here. Any observations please.
 
I am torn between the two as well. I already have a 150, and love what it does. But I can see where a lighter weight, smaller cam would be of benefit.
 
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