Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
$1000/day is very reasonable if you are dealing with a seasoned pro. I would say anything less than $750/d and you are asking for trouble.
When a cinematographer is asking for too much $$$
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mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
I usually ask for a lot when I don't really want the job.
Isn't that pretty much standard practice?
Price = Cost + Time x BS Factor.
As the desire to do the project goes down (often due to BS; but also other things like schedule, booking, etc..) then the price goes up. Sometimes logarithmically.
- Mikko
Belief Pictures
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Taylor Rudd
Veteran
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I just did a music video, non-union, for about $500/day, $100/day per-diem, hotel lodging and paid gas re-reimbursement. I was the 1st AC. I have camera operated for $800 a day on cable television shows, and etc. I'm sure Patryk and others on DVXuser have gotten more as cinematographer. I'm not trying to demean what the original poster has to offer the position, but I'm just trying to show that there are all types of productions out there, and appropriately all types of people. Some are expensive some are cheap, some are undervalued, and some are overvalued.
When one runs in the super-low budget circle, one can easily forget that people make good livings doing these things as a profession. I remember being at a Q&A with Wally Pfister, ASC about two or three years ago. Someone in the group asked him if he'd ever consider doing indie films again, like Laurel Canyon. (Indie in this sense of the word being still alot of money, mind you).
He humorously and honestly shook his head and said something along the lines of "I have too many kids and a big house...", meaning he makes the big bucks now. I suppose winning the Oscar this year, will only help make more. In fact, I know one ASC member who made over $800,000 for one film. Pfister probably clears more than him since he's one of the biggest names in the game and also best buds with Emperor Nolan, who can make WB bend at his will.
When one runs in the super-low budget circle, one can easily forget that people make good livings doing these things as a profession. I remember being at a Q&A with Wally Pfister, ASC about two or three years ago. Someone in the group asked him if he'd ever consider doing indie films again, like Laurel Canyon. (Indie in this sense of the word being still alot of money, mind you).
He humorously and honestly shook his head and said something along the lines of "I have too many kids and a big house...", meaning he makes the big bucks now. I suppose winning the Oscar this year, will only help make more.
In fact, I know one ASC member who made over $800,000 for one film. Pfister probably clears more than him since he's one of the biggest names in the game and also best buds with Emperor Nolan, who can make WB bend at his will.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
It's us. Always. Because if they just say "okay" it means we undercharged 'em. Which means we probably didn't factor in just how much nonsense will be going on in the shoot... sigh.
Belief Pictures
Active member
Why would he do a longer period for less? Is he not trying to scoop up as much moola for himself as he can?
djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
Getting paid $4000 for a week's work is better than getting paid $1000/day for 2 days out of that same week.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
You can probably find a lot of folks that will shoot your film for a lot less. However, you may want to really consider what THAT may cost. Every second of a production costs money. A very good cinematographer may turn that precious production time into a creative endeavor beyond your expectations. Someone less experienced, and charging you less, may not be able to do that. The skills of a good cinematographer are not easy to come by. I don't know if the person you are talking about is all of that, but if you make the judgement that they are the person that can bring that extra something to your project a good cinematographer can, then at least try to negotiate their fee with them. Djbobbyrhodes is right. Guaranteed work for an extended period may bring the day rate down. You find that in a lot of the pricing for filmmaking services. For example with camera or lighting/grip rentals you can sometimes negotiate 3 or 4 day weeks, which means you pay a 3 or 4 times the single day rate and you get the gear for a week. As for offering "Points", well, unless you have a track record for distributed films, with demonstrable profits, and your current project is a film with more than a similar chance of making the same kind of profits, offering "Points" will not be much of an incentive and to professional crew, may be seen as insulting and amateurish. For crew, SOMETIMES it is possible to negotiate a deferred compensation agreement, where the crew will work for lower rate during production, but will then be paid the balance of their compensation upon future conditions, usually the "Selling" of the film to a distributor, with the deferred crew compensation coming from first moneys received by the producers. Again, without a track record, or demonstrable interest from a distributor before hand, negotiating deferred compensation with a crew may not be possible, or advantageous. Deferred compensation agreements are considered debts owed by the film and will need to evaluated by any distributor during the negotiations for the purchase of any rights to the film. While your deferred compensation agreements may be be very clear cut and defined to the "T", having many of them gives any potential distributor more hoops to jump through to acquire rights to your film. That may not be something you want. So, offers of back end money may not be something that you may want to use when hiring your crew.
Good luck.
Good luck.
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Mr Blue
Active member
Yes and no. Points are percentage points of the movie, not neccesarily the profits. Profits can classified in two ways gross or net, the difference is in how they are divided up ( before/after taxes, expenses, etc).
Gross is the profit made before expenses. So if your film made $100 and the dp had 1 point he would get $1. Whereas if it were net the profit, the profit is calculated after expenses, so if that same movie were to make $100, but cost $50 to get it into a festival $30 to transfer it to another medium and $10 to ship it out, your net profit is $10. Now that 1% is only a dime. ( this is the perfect world/text book scenario but the jist of it is there). Thats why when you ask if points are a percentage of the profit, I say it's not that cut and dry 1% gross is different from 1% net.
Going on a very far tangent now
So if you are offered 10 points net or 2 points gross, go with the gross, net will almost never make as much as gross. Hollywood is good at cooking their books so there is almost never a net profit. Heck they probably fixed it so that avatar was a loss. One of the ways they do this is by releasing a money losing movie, that's one of the reasons they make bad movies. So next you are watching cats and dogs part 2 and wondering why they funded an obvious dud, they are fixing their books to show the taxman they lost money that year. Star Wars was supposed to be one of those money losers, the studio didn't have much hope for it and thought it was an obvious flop, oops. Sorry for the long side note, but there is an interesting side to the business side of Hollywood.
Belief Pictures
Active member
Yes very interesting!
Paul Hudson
Vacuum Tube Member
Would you shop for the cheapest doctor should you need a surgeon?
Belief Pictures
Active member
No you do not find the cheapest doctor but one that fits your budget. There is a difference. If a DP wants $1000/day they need to go find a SAG or ACTRA project. That is not this.
If you can't find a number you can agree on, then your one option seems to be that you find another DP for your project.
The person in question may or may not be worth every dime of his asking rate. Conversely, your project may or may not warrant that he takes the work for less because he believes in it. Even if he thinks it an award-worthy passion project, he may not be able to afford to pass on better-paying work to commit himself to your endeavor. These are all the realities of your situation.
At the end of the day it all comes down to either agreeing on a rate (among other key terms an experienced DP will ask for) or moving on. The rest of the conversation is just going to keep you from moving forward.
The person in question may or may not be worth every dime of his asking rate. Conversely, your project may or may not warrant that he takes the work for less because he believes in it. Even if he thinks it an award-worthy passion project, he may not be able to afford to pass on better-paying work to commit himself to your endeavor. These are all the realities of your situation.
At the end of the day it all comes down to either agreeing on a rate (among other key terms an experienced DP will ask for) or moving on. The rest of the conversation is just going to keep you from moving forward.
ilauzirika
Boring Senior Member
who hasn't....hahaha... no really, one of the times I tried that they accepted the deal and hey it turned out great!I've done that.
I just see the situation where he was asked what he would charge. That's happened to me. "What's your rate?" "XXX dollars" "Oh, that's too expensive." Well, why don't you tell me what you're going to offer and then let me decide if I'll do it for that. I hate that game of "gotcha!" where people seem to be passed up only because they didn't say the correct number.
I got passed over for a job that was a 9-5, I had to use my own equipment with no oversight other than a generalized "we need something that speaks to this issue", and no health insurance either. Then comes the gotcha. "How much would you like to make?" Yeah, I was too high (go figure).
I got passed over for a job that was a 9-5, I had to use my own equipment with no oversight other than a generalized "we need something that speaks to this issue", and no health insurance either. Then comes the gotcha. "How much would you like to make?" Yeah, I was too high (go figure).
Snapper123
Well-known member
Well, if the cinematographer rents his cameras and equipment himself, the professional versions of those tools tend to cost at least $500 at day as a package for him (and that's just with using things like T2i's, lenses, and equipment - just to rent a Red One it's $1,000 if you find it cheap). He has to make the amount of money back that he spends and a little more, or else he's throwing his own money out the window - he'd probably willingly throw it out the window if he got the chance to work on a Hollywood film instead of local things, but he probably wouldn't do that for a church production unless he's a very religious person who wants to donate for the cause. Chances are, $1,000 a day is not far off from very realistic.
But in my opinion, he could go much lower - I'd bet that he already owns his own equipment (with it paid off a billion times over) and is even probably using outdated equipment. When a cinematographer gets to this "outdated/paid off" point, they should be earning minimum wage like everyone else + whatever money they spend for gas, and rentals. I really doubt that any sort of local cinematographer is going to give you results that are worth $1,000 a day, they'll probably be worth more around $500 at most - I'd ask him to explain his equipment package (check for outdated cameras) and get him to explain the equipment he's putting forth and "how long" he's had the experience with that equipment (a good alternative question to "how long have you owned it?"). Chances are, he's charging 2x or 3x what he should be earning just because other baffoons clients in the town will fall for it.
Then again, who knows, maybe you snagged someone really talented and they have a super-filled schedule that only $1,000 can "break up". If he's not exactly clustered with projects though, most likely you can talk him down to something reasonable.
But in my opinion, he could go much lower - I'd bet that he already owns his own equipment (with it paid off a billion times over) and is even probably using outdated equipment. When a cinematographer gets to this "outdated/paid off" point, they should be earning minimum wage like everyone else + whatever money they spend for gas, and rentals. I really doubt that any sort of local cinematographer is going to give you results that are worth $1,000 a day, they'll probably be worth more around $500 at most - I'd ask him to explain his equipment package (check for outdated cameras) and get him to explain the equipment he's putting forth and "how long" he's had the experience with that equipment (a good alternative question to "how long have you owned it?"). Chances are, he's charging 2x or 3x what he should be earning just because other baffoons clients in the town will fall for it.
Then again, who knows, maybe you snagged someone really talented and they have a super-filled schedule that only $1,000 can "break up". If he's not exactly clustered with projects though, most likely you can talk him down to something reasonable.
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
I disagree with this almost in it's entirety. When you hire a cinematographer, you are paying them for their experience, knowledge, and ability to deliver results complementary to your project. After the rate for that has been established, which can be based on any number of factors, equipment comes into play either through renting a package the DP owns, or arranging rentals.
The people who go in with an "equipment first" attitude are hiring based on the wrong criteria and they will be the ones who suffer for it.
To put it another way, I have never been in a position where the deciding factor was how long I had owed any particular camera equipment or what that equipment is. And if that is the first question out of their mouth, I'm not staying around to hear the second.
William is absolutely right.
Professional camera operators get their day rate plus a separate box rental for their equipment plus per diem, fuel, lodging and, very often, fringe benefits paid by the production in exchange for their services. Minimum wage for an AC on a low-budget show is $250. Camera operators on non-union shows commonly earn at least $550 and a DP can command more than a thousand dollars a day. IATSE 600 mandates minimum rates and fringes, but they are just the starting point for experienced DPs, operators and the camera department in general.
Professional owner-operators may have a hundred-thousand dollars (or more) tied-up in their equipment package and those are usually funded through capital financed leases. These come in one to five year terms and, even at the best rates, the monthly lease charges (and the required insurance to cover them) are nothing short of staggering. A DP can only charge the prevailing rate for their equipment if they wish to stay competitive - so they're typically not going to make as much as you'd think the would - even on longer productions, where three-day (or less) weeks are the norm.
I don't know much about the market where the OP resides or is producing, but his DP might come from a major market where prevailing labor rates are significantly higher.
Professional camera operators get their day rate plus a separate box rental for their equipment plus per diem, fuel, lodging and, very often, fringe benefits paid by the production in exchange for their services. Minimum wage for an AC on a low-budget show is $250. Camera operators on non-union shows commonly earn at least $550 and a DP can command more than a thousand dollars a day. IATSE 600 mandates minimum rates and fringes, but they are just the starting point for experienced DPs, operators and the camera department in general.
Professional owner-operators may have a hundred-thousand dollars (or more) tied-up in their equipment package and those are usually funded through capital financed leases. These come in one to five year terms and, even at the best rates, the monthly lease charges (and the required insurance to cover them) are nothing short of staggering. A DP can only charge the prevailing rate for their equipment if they wish to stay competitive - so they're typically not going to make as much as you'd think the would - even on longer productions, where three-day (or less) weeks are the norm.
I don't know much about the market where the OP resides or is producing, but his DP might come from a major market where prevailing labor rates are significantly higher.
Matt Gottshalk
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