What's the point of a slider, when you got a glidecam?

I

ironpony

Carbonite Member
A lot of low budget filmmakers are buying both sliders and glidecams, but it seems a glidecam, is pretty much all purpose, movement, and you don't need both. A glidecam can also act as a small jib too, depending on how high your arm can go. why by all these sliders, when a glidecam can do it, and has more range, since, of course you can walk all around with it? I were to just get one for a bigger movie project, which would be more essential? A lot of it would be run and gun.
 
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Well, for me, it is repeatable action that makes a slider attractive to me. If you want to move from one carefully chosen frame to another carefully chosen frame it is easier to do it with a fluid head on a slider then with a free floating stabilizer. Setting up carefully selected framing, especially end framing can be done with a glidecam type device, but it would take a very experienced operator with hours and hours of practice under their belt and would take more on set time to set up and execute. I am sure it is possible to set up some type of hard stop type device for both types of devices, but I think that doing that with a Glidecam would take much more elaborate rigging then setting up a hard stop device with a fluid head on a slider.
 
That's true. There is one specific shot I had in mind where I would need precision, during a simple dialogue scene, but with a complicated shot, for dramatic effect I had in mind. I was thinking of buying between a Kessler Pocket Dolly and a Glidecam HD4000, but the PD can only go about 3 feet, and that's not a lot. I wonder if even that's enough for the shot I want, depending on which location I end up getting. Unless I am mistaken? That's just one shot though for example. Perhaps I could put up tape if I want for such a shot? I am acting in this thing to, so I would need to get the DP to practice with the gear. This one shot though for example I could do myself, since I am not in the scene, but I am in many others. Plus every slider test I see online, the slider is moving very slow, so it's hard to get an idea, of how it looks otherwise.
 
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I can't really talk in regards to the "Pocket Dolly" or the Glidecam. I have one of J. G. Pasterjak's Cinemover slider set ups. I like it. It is inexpensive and very versatile. Now it does take a bit of customization to get it set up for your individual needs. I have a Miller 30 fluid head and to mount it on the Cinemover takes a high hat. I am re-doing my mounting set up as we speak. The first way I did it was a little sloppy and am going to enlist the help of a a carpenter to build me something a little better. All in all though, I think that it is a pretty good little gizmo. I have an 8 foot piece of PVC fence railing that I use as the base and support it with milk crates and sandbags.

http://moveyourcamera.ambitiousme.com/

I recently had some experience on a shoot using a Porta-Jib set up. It is a dolly, jib arm and slider combo. I didn't really care for it. It is a well made device, but way over engineered, with too many proprietary parts and accessories that need to be adjusted. in dolly/jib mode it is very top heavy. It tipped over on us while trying to move it between set ups and we nearly dumped the camera. It was a very close call. I feel that to use that thing confidently I would want to clock in a lot of hours of practice. (And it is very expensive... about $7000.00). We ended up using it in slider mode mostly and I really kept thinking that my $88 Cinemover set up (Well, $300 bucks actually with high hat, rail and mounting gear) would have worked just as well.

3 feet on the Pocket Dolly seems to me to be way too short, for a lot of shots. I think that it may compromise a bit for portability. With my Cinemover, while I am using an 8 foot rail as my main support, when mounted, I may have a total of maybe 6 feet of total travel (I sand bag down both ends). The 8 foot rail just fits in my car, from right up against the hatch back in the rear to right against the gear shifter in the front and I use the milk crates to carry stuff to the sets. So, yeah my set up is "Portable" but not like the PD. What is cool about the Cinemover is that it can be adjusted to work on a variety of mounts, even stuff that may be available on location and can be set up as a table top dolly using just the wheels. I am concentrating mostly on fictional narrative, so I wanted to start with the longest practical set up I could. Now thinking about it. I may try to come up with a smaller set up; maybe a 4 foot rail and more portable mounting to use the Cinemover for different kinds of shoots. Now, I don't want to make this thread a commercial for the Cinemover. I like the thing, but it really is kind of just a step up from DIY and other folks may want to go with more sophisticated solutions.

BTW, for pan/tilt hard stops with a fluid head, what we came up with is to use an extra long 15mm rod placed on the side of the camera that we are panning/tilting to and an L shaped hard stop made with a light stand and a grip head with a dedicated extension rod, on a second stand. The way we do it is set up the final frame that we want. Lock the tripod fluid head down tight. Then bring in the light stand to just touch the extra long 15mm rod on the side and then bring up the grip head extension arm to just touch the bottom of the 15mm rod. We can then go back to the starting frame and pan across and down until the 15mm rod hits the L formed by the stand and extension arm. This is quick to set up and works. You may get a click sound when the rod hits stand and extension arm, so we tape pieces of foam to them to knock that down. It helps to have an AC hold the light stand and make sure that both stands are sand bagged down. Down and dirty, easy-peasy!!!
 
I have both, ill be it a cheaper hand held only steady-cam and a DIY DryLin Igus slider.
Yes, many times I can prefer using the steady cam and can make small movements that "emulate" a slider because I can move around more dynamically and catch those spur of the moment shots. Where setting up a slider takes time and MORE TIME.

However, the accuracy, repeatability, and stableness you just cant do with a steady-cam. Not to mention motorized time-lapse and liner sliders are a completely different tool then a steady-cam.
Since i do mostly event and weddings, i use the slider for detail shots. It really optimizes my efficiency, since almost all the slider shots are "Money" shots. I can fire off those detail shots and move on.
The Kessler and HD4000 are all high end tools. And it seems from your problem, its a matter of fitting one or the other into your budget. I'd try borrow/rent both and play around with it, if your going that route.

The other would be to get a "cheaper" alternative (slider) as you can make a pretty solid slider for under $150. You could even look into "skaters" and stay well under $100.
I used a DIY skater and got great results. Most student "movie" shots will take place in rooms and hallways where the ground is smooth. Not to mention countertops and tables. 2 saw-horses and a board and you've got yourself a very adaptable "slider".

Keep in mind, a steady cam needs practice and "finesse". A slider you can cover your detail shots and anyone can operate one.
Also a 4 foot slider is great, 3 feet is doable. But I find the forward/backward movements really benefits from a longer slider. The side to side 3 feet is almost enough as you mostly move from a close up item (blocking the view) to an open shot revealing something (i.e. wall-doorway-room).

DryLin W1040-A Linear Motion System for Camera Sliders - compact,low-cost: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Amazon.com: TableTop compact Dolly Kit Skater wheel Camera Truck Stabilizer for 5D2 video RLDolly: Camera & Photo
Amazon.com: DMKFoto Heavy Duty Ball Head with Quick Release Plate: Camera & Photo
 
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You're really talking about a dolly move vs. handheld. A slider is essentially a dolly, as far as how the final look of the shot comes out. And up-down motion (vs. a tilt) in a sideways or head-on dolly shot will take you out of that visual "vocabulary" that audiences understand.

I did the Igus slider but ordered a 46" piece of track. It needs two stands to support it but works pretty well, unless your rig starts getting top heavy (and mine frequently does).

I'm really considering making a slider-dolly, a small truck with roller blade wheels and maybe 2 lengths of 2" pvc bolted together with spacers. Seems like that would be very smooth, and it would be easy to fabricate pretty long lengths for planned shots, or even make something that could be "flown" for long tracks through a nightclub set, flying over tables, etc.
 
I do mostly narrative work. The reason I use a dolly or a slider (shorter moves, easier setup) as opposed to a stabilizer (I have the CMR blackbird) is to be able to pull focus. To pull focus on a stabilizer or a stedicam for that matter you need a Preston or some other remote FF with a motor. Unless all of your moves are side to side slides where you don't change focus at all or are at such a depth of field that it is unnecessary. This is the problem I have using the stabilizer now. I have to set up so that I never have to adjust focus by staying stopped down and far enough away, which for me, is not too often.
 
1) You won't wear out by shooting with a slider dolly for extended periods of time.

2) You don't have to balance the slider against wobble like you do a stabilizer.

3) The choice of lenses is much greater with a slider, since longer lenses tend to show much more jitter/wobble with a stabilizer.

4) The slider is consistent.

I used to have both, but I found that I used the slider much more often than the Glidecam. I even had the vest and arm for the Glidecam, but it just wore me out. So, I sold the Glidecam kit. Yes, you can get a different variety of shots with each, but for my shooting purposes the slider dolly just makes more sense. They are also two very differently-purposed items, and one will not replace the other for most of those purposes. The Glidecam has the advantage of mobility; the slider has stability.
 
Alex H. said:
1) You won't wear out by shooting with a slider dolly for extended periods of time.

2) You don't have to balance the slider against wobble like you do a stabilizer.

3) The choice of lenses is much greater with a slider, since longer lenses tend to show much more jitter/wobble with a stabilizer.

4) The slider is consistent.

I used to have both, but I found that I used the slider much more often than the Glidecam. I even had the vest and arm for the Glidecam, but it just wore me out. So, I sold the Glidecam kit. Yes, you can get a different variety of shots with each, but for my shooting purposes the slider dolly just makes more sense. They are also two very differently-purposed items, and one will not replace the other for most of those purposes. The Glidecam has the advantage of mobility; the slider has stability.
Click to expand...

+1

I've built slider up to 6' in length for customers. :beer:
 
its starting to sound like you need a doorway or traditional track dolly rather than a budget slider or steadicam type rig.
 
Michael Carter said:
I'm really considering making a slider-dolly, a small truck with roller blade wheels and maybe 2 lengths of 2" pvc bolted together with spacers. Seems like that would be very smooth, and it would be easy to fabricate pretty long lengths for planned shots, or even make something that could be "flown" for long tracks through a nightclub set, flying over tables, etc.
Click to expand...

That is what the Cinemover is, really. If your handy, a DIY small skateboard dolly shouldn't be that big of a deal to make (Think Po' man's Dana Dolly). A shot I am looking to try and do at some point is a dolly through a car window, which would be possible with one of the small slider dollies.
 
Okay thanks people. Well a lot of places where I live have carpet in their locations so there's a good chance I will find myself with a skateboard not being an option. I'm still trying to find videos of slider tests online, but again, all the sliding is so slow, and would like to see some faster movements, with a fluid head on top. This would really help me make that decision, rather than just seeing the same very slow, straight slide all the time in these tests.
 
i hate to keep beating this, but my biggest problem with sliders with wheels is that its often pretty hard to get a good, consistent, slow decelerate to a solid stop. thats why i tend to prefer some sort of friction based slider. the rules change for a floor dolly, because little bits of motion arent as detectable. but on a slider it usually ends in a noticeable shimmy.
 
I don't know if I want a slider now. Every shot I see with it, is a very slow slide shot, that is used in such an ineffective way. I just saw Compliance yesterday, and it is full of slider shots, which did not even serve a lot of the shots that effectively it seems. It seems it is very limited to what it can do, and still haven't seen other shot ideas used with it, rather than a very slow track, that doesn't go very far, which is only good for a few shots I had in mind, but need to see more of what it can do to be sold on it, rather than this same shot over and over.
 
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They are totally different. They look completely different. One is not a substitute for the other.

The "slow" dolly/slider stuff you talk about not liking, I LOVE and use extensively. Steadicam is ALSO a completely different animal (when I say Steadicam, I mean a "real" many thousands of dollars steadicam operated by a professional operator) than a "glidecam" which is basically slightly improved handheld.
 
you have to take in to consideration what a slider move says creatively. for me, they are typically for establishing a scene or in advertising, product beauty shots. they arent for everything and they dont generally serve the same purpose as a steadicam or jib or even a tripod.

i wonder if youre expecting a slider to be more than its intended to be. or at least trying to deploy it in the wrong context...?
 
Possible slider shots:
-dolly in
-dolly out
-horizontal slide or reveal
-horizonal slide w/pan & tilt
-vertical slide
-dutch-slide (dutch angle slide)
-low slide (slider on floor)
-ultra-low slide (flip slider so the cameras an inch from the ground)
-'through' slide (slide into or out of a window)
-'way-through' slide (add an extention rail to the carriage of your slider, mount your camera on that...and you can slide through, out or past objects)
-direct over-head shot (looking straight down-slide camera to end of rail & tilt down 90 degrees)
-easy framing (even on lockdown shots, you can reframe a shot without having to move the tripod and relevel it...example; over the shoulder shot)
....I'm sure there are a few more I haven't thought of (or used).

Mount the rail on a fluid head....and there are tons more shots you can get. You're only limited by your creativity!

Igus Drylin, roller wheel based, friction slide, ball-bearing...for my money (under $200.00), a 3' slider is one of the best investments I've ever made....a tool I never attend a shoot without. That's why I shared my epifhany with the DVX community all those years ago.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?145701-DIY-IndieSlider
Take a week to read the whole thread...tons of great info. in there. :beer:
 
Oh okay. For establishing shots I have just been using a tripod or steadicam. A slider would have a different look. Here's a shot I have in mind for example. I want the camera to be of a close up on a guys face, sitting at a desk. I then want the camera to slide to the other side of the desk, tilt down, and reveal something on the other side. Now I will have to borrow someone's location for the shoot, and that person will probably not be okay, with me taking the desk out and bringing in whatever desk I want for a place of business. So if the desk is too wide, a slider will not be able to do it. Shots like that makes me wonder if it's worth it. I don't know if I should buy one for establishing shots only. At least not the $500 dollar ones. There is the whole DIY thing, but does DIY really measure up? Some pros have said no, but can I get one that is not something like a $500 Kessler Crane type, and it can still work just as good? I would be more comfortable using more of my budget on one if I got more types of use out of it.

And of course there are those sliders that you two users are selling on here cheaper! I am going to have a look at those definitely. Why is it called the Zaza DIY slider? If I am buying it, how is it DIY?
 
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i'll tell you, the kessler was the one i was trying to rent when i came up with my own. and i think mine is much smoother and easier to use than the kessler. of course with the sled not being attached to the rails, there are things it doesnt do that the kessler does. but if you just want a good, smooth, solid affordable slider move that doesnt bind. many folks have said mine is the smoothest theyve used at any price.
 
Okay thanks. Sorry I lost tracks of those messages about the sliders before. I am preoccupied with getting a scene shoot ready by next week and want a slider. To late to order one, I think I will try the DIY method. I was going to use a steadicam originally, but a slider would work possibly better for some of the shots.
 
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